Holy and Sinners at the same time?

[Woody]

Can we be Holy and Sinners at the same time?

A friend of mine said the following:

Quote:

"What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time."

What do you think about this topic? Is it true?

[Just*]

Can we be Holy and Sinners at the same time?

A friend of mine said the following:

Quote:

"What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time."

What do you think about this topic? Is it true?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh Jn 3:6

Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one. Job 14:4

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5

and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Ps 58:3

[Gerr]

Can we be Holy and Sinners at the same time?

A friend of mine said the following:

Quote:

"What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time."

What do you think about this topic? Is it true?

Yes and No. How so?

When a sinner surrenders and gives himself wholly to God, he becomes justified (pronounced sinless/perfect) and sanctified (made holy, sacred, dedicated for holy purposes); born again. He is still, however, living in an imperfect, perishable, body. So he still makes mistakes. Nonetheless, the word still calls him "saint", i.e. holy one.

Not so with one who sins deliberately and willfully. To sin willfully and deliberately is to make one's self profane, i.e. common, no longer dedicated, set apart, sanctified or holy.

[Robert]

So he still makes mistakes.

No, it's more than what you say. We are sinners. We were born indwelt with "iniquity". As Ps 51:5 states, "I was created in sin (iniquity)". We are born "bent to self". We are born in total love with ourselves.

Sounds great, huh? Well it isn't! The result of our love of self?

Hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, obscenities, lusts, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, depravity, deceptive dealings, carousing, mean looks, slander, arrogance, foolishness, etc....

I love myself. Because I am born spiritually bent towards myself what I see I want. Now because I don't like jail, I'll try to get what I desire legally.

For example, I see my beautiful neighbor. What does my nature put in my mind? I want her....It doesn't think, "she is married" because it doesn't care. It wants what it sees.

Now it might not be adultery. It might be I want that job and I'll have a better resume'....I'll go to night school so I can out do them and get this job. From where does that desire come? Right, my nature.

Both of these examples originate from my love of self. I might not do the first example, but we've all done something like the second one. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea.

So, for the Christian, yes he/she is growing. They have two natures:

1] What they have by the natural birth,

2] What they have by the heavenly birth,

The one you feed the most that one will grow. We need to grow folks - not to get salvation (for we have it "in Christ") - but in order to retain Christ. You see if the nature takes over completely it will nail Christ on the cross, again (figuratively speaking). Before Christ, we were ignorant, but when we knowingly nail Him to that tree, well read Hebrews 6:4

4 Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the Holy Spirit, 5 once they've personally experienced the sheer goodness of God's Word and the powers breaking in on us - 6 and then turn their backs on God, It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.

So, while we are growing, we are both Saint and sinner. "In Christ" we stand complete. Hence we are Saints. By faith I am experiencing sanctification. Yet I am coming up short. Like I said, I might not be having sex with my next door neighbor's wife, but there's things in my life where self is still the center. Hence I'm continually falling short of God's selfless love as seen in the life of Christ. Perhaps the last generation of believers will experience "the faith of Jesus"? If so, they may experience sinless living in sinful flesh.

My thoughts,

Rob

[Taylor]

Well Rob I could agree with what you said. I just might encourage you...this is how I see victory

1. When you run to Christ when you are tempted and ask for his help.

2. When you genuinly repent when you do sin...not just because you were caught but because you are genuinly sorry.

3. When you want with your whole heart to follow Christ.

4. When you put for every effort to not place yourself in a situation where sinning is way easier (like King David did, by feasting his eyes and probably going on his roof day after day to see Bathsheba bathe. God would never force his feet to walk back into his house. But David could have chosen to read a scroll, go for a walk, talk to a servant, pray, go for a jog whatever. So our effort is also required to avoid situations where the temptation will be even stronger.)

5. When we take time to think through the temptation and realize that although that temptation may be "fun" in the long run we don't want to do it so we ask for strength from God and we don't do it.

6. When we get to the point that that sin isn't a complete obsession with us..then there is growth in that area.

That in my opinion is victory.

[Robert]

Perhaps the last generation of believers will experience "the faith of Jesus"? If so, they may experience sinless living in sinful flesh.

I have come to the conclusion that EGW is right. Those that go through the great tribulation will perfectly reflect Christ. And no, not be saved, but because they have the assurance of salvation even though they feel God has abandoned them.

Here's what she states:

“Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

Now, what's this earthliness? Our bent to self - our love of self. That's why John the Revelator says, "They love not their lives even unto death."

Are the last generation of Christian sinless then? In performance, yes, in nature no! Remember the law even condemns us because of indwelling sin. So the last generation will be sinners and saints. Sinners, because they have not yet received holy flesh. Saints, because they have fully matured. There is no self-love seen in their lives. They have given up everything for Christ.

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So he still makes mistakes.

No, it's more than what you say. We are sinners. We were born indwelt with "iniquity". As Ps 51:5 states, "I was created in sin (iniquity)". We are born "bent to self". We are born in total love with ourselves.

Sounds great, huh? Well it isn't! The result of our love of self?

Hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, obscenities, lusts, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, depravity, deceptive dealings, carousing, mean looks, slander, arrogance, foolishness, etc....

I love myself. Because I am born spiritually bent towards myself what I see I want. Now because I don't like jail, I'll try to get what I desire legally.

That's why a new principle, the divine Seed must be implanted within, i.e. "You must be born again."

Quote:

For example, I see my beautiful neighbor. What does my nature put in my mind? I want her....It doesn't think, "she is married" because it doesn't care. It wants what it sees.

Now it might not be adultery. It might be I want that job and I'll have a better resume'....I'll go to night school so I can out do them and get this job. From where does that desire come? Right, my nature.

You have a choice: 1) cling to the old self 2) Put on the new.

Quote:

Both of these examples originate from my love of self. I might not do the first example, but we've all done something like the second one. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea.

So, for the Christian, yes he/she is growing. They have two natures:

1] What they have by the natural birth,

2] What they have by the heavenly birth,

The one you feed the most that one will grow. We need to grow folks - not to get salvation (for we have it "in Christ") - but in order to retain Christ. You see if the nature takes over completely it will nail Christ on the cross, again (figuratively speaking). Before Christ, we were ignorant, but when we knowingly nail Him to that tree, well read Hebrews 6:4

Agreed. Now expound on what you mean by, "we need to grow folks." Does a growing Christian become more obedient or less obedient? Does a growing Christian stop fornicating, stealing, lying, bowing to idols, etc., or does he continue practicing these same sins?

[Robert]

Does a growing Christian become more obedient or less obedient? Does a growing Christian stop fornicating, stealing, lying, bowing to idols, etc., or does he continue practicing these same sins?

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Does a growing Christian become more obedient or less obedient? Does a growing Christian stop fornicating, stealing, lying, bowing to idols, etc., or does he continue practicing these same sins?

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

I am dumbfounded! I never thought we'd ever agree on anything!

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." [/quote']

I am dumbfounded! I never thought we'd ever agree on anything!

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Hmmm?

[LifeHiscost]

Can we be Holy and Sinners at the same time?

This seems to be a straight forward answer___

"...I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and marvelous are Your works,

O Lord God, the Almighty;

Righteous and true are Your ways,

King of the nations!

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?

For You alone are holy ..." Revelation 15:2-4 NASB

Underlined LHC

Since this is a scene of the future heaven, after total victory of the children of God over the beast, his image and the number of his name, it seems unlikely anyone on this earth before that time would fit into the holy category.

Regards!

[Raphael]

I suppose some people may become capable of feeling holy and sinless when comparing to other fellow humans. It's perhaps very human to become like that but the problem is, its not comparing to others that may constitute sinlessness. If anyone honestly communions with God, he or she may find out their true nature.

If I compare my self to the world, I do find myself somehow like a saint of which I believe many of us are but it is not them I am measuring myself against..

It is kind of discouraging to meet people who feel righteous and sinless where they further expect the world to measure up to their deemed standards but can one expect a perfect world with perfect people in it?

I am seemingly experiencing continual growth and I sincerely hope that it will keep that way forever.. I don't make targets, just keeping on plowing and believing that I have received.. this is what I am positive and optimistic about..

Keep up the faith, that things are already great..

Raphael