Dr. Shane Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Galations 4:4 says that Jesus was made of woman. Does this mean that Jesus had in His genes genetic material of Mary? Isaiah 7:14 states that Jesus would be born of the virgin and be called Immanuel, which is "God with us". Clearly this was supernatural; being of the virgin and being God. Romans 8:3 tells us He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. Hebrews 4:15 says that Christ was tempted in all points as we are. 1 John 4:3 makes believing that Christ came in the flesh the test of whether or not they are a true believer. So given the gravity, this seems to be a fundamental question for those professing to be Christians. Was Mary just a surrogate mother or was Jesus actually formed using Mary's flesh? What is the meaning of the word "likeness" in Romans 8:3? Why is this doctrine so important to the Christian faith? What is the practical application of believing this? How does in impact our Christian life? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Kountzer Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 You use capital letters too much. Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass
melvin mccarty Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 It says she conceived. Is that not plain enough? ...mel Quote
Dr. Shane Posted December 31, 2008 Author Posted December 31, 2008 No, I don't think it is. What does "conceived" mean? Did the Holy Spirit fertilize one of Mary's eggs or did the Holy Spirit implant the embryo Jesus in Mary's womb? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 31, 2008 Members Posted December 31, 2008 No, I don't think it is. What does "conceived" mean? Did the Holy Spirit fertilize one of Mary's eggs or did the Holy Spirit implant the embryo Jesus in Mary's womb? True..."conceived" only means Mary became pregnant. But why would the Bible make such an issue of the genealogy of Jesus if He had not only been the Son of God, but also the Son of man? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators Nan Posted December 31, 2008 Moderators Posted December 31, 2008 In another place Paul talks of "the mystery of Godliness" 1 Tim 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great. He appeared in a body..... Some things are beyond our comprehension on this earth. Quote
melvin mccarty Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Then Mary would not be his real mother and the whole story would be a sham. His favorite name for Himself...Son of man.. would be a lie....mel Quote
Dr. Shane Posted January 1, 2009 Author Posted January 1, 2009 Then Mary would not be his real mother and the whole story would be a sham. His favorite name for Himself...Son of man.. would be a lie....mel I am not disagreeing with this sentiment. However most of Christianity and many Adventists do. I am simply probing the question for Biblical answers - not merely theories and ideas. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Robert Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Was Mary just a surrogate mother or was Jesus actually formed using Mary's flesh? First, Jesus is God. He has always been God. There was never a time when Jesus was not God. He is Deity! At the incarnation, God the Father, blended the humanity in Mary's womb, with Christ's Deity. While they were in one body, they were separate. Much like the Holy Spirit in you. Let me explain: When you accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit (God) came to live in you. Did you become sinless? No! Did the HS become sinful? No! Why not? Although in one body, the two of you are separate. The HS didn't become you nor did you become the HS. Quote
Robert Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin [Jesus as God] to be sin [as the son of mankind], so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus as God never sinned. Jesus as man was "made sin". I didn't say He sinned, but He assumed the same fallen life that we share. Hence the moment He was "made of a woman" that moment He came under the curse of the law. As Job says, "How can one born of woman be pure?" But remember, Jesus is God. He assumed our fallen, sinful life to redeem us from the curse of the law. We have a humanity now, in heaven, perfect and sinless in Christ Jesus. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 1, 2009 Moderators Posted January 1, 2009 Galations 4:4 says that Jesus was made of woman. Does this mean that Jesus had in His genes genetic material of Mary? Mary had the genetic material of Abraham and of Abraham's (and Adam's) descendants. The Bible says in Hebrews 2: 16 that Jesus assumed the nature of Abraham's seed. The next verse says that Jesus was made like us humans "in all things," and this was done so that He could be a merciful and faithful mediator for us. Hebrews 2: 14 says that Jesus took part in "the same" flesh and blood that we have. Romans 1: 3 says plainly that Jesus was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh." That could be true only if Jesus inherited the genetic material of David. He therefore inherited the same nature as David had. Ellen White wrote that Jesus was "of the seed of David, according to human descent" (RH 4/05/06). Quote: It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. The Desire of Ages (1898), page 48, 49 Quote: SHANE:-- Romans 8:3 tells us He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. Hebrews 4:15 says that Christ was tempted in all points as we are. 1 John 4:3 makes believing that Christ came in the flesh the test of whether or not they are a true believer. So given the gravity, this seems to be a fundamental question for those professing to be Christians. 1 John 4: 2 says that Jesus came as a human being and continues as a human being. The verb is in the perfect tense. When we compare the use of "likeness" in Romans 8: 3 with the use of the same word in Phil. 2: 8, it becomes clear that Jesus was a real man, with the same nature as other real men. The word "likeness" points out the sameness, not the difference, between Christ and mankind. It is saying that Christ was truly human, not having merely the appearance of being human. In the same way, Romans 8: 3 is saying that Jesus really was in the same flesh as we are, which is sinful flesh. He knew what it meant to be tempted the same as we are tempted. He really could have fallen, but he didn't fall. Ellen White wrote, "He [Christ] should take man's fallen nature" (SG 1, p. 25). "Taking... man's nature in its fallen condition" (ST 6/09/96). "Christ clothed His divinity with sinful flesh in order that as our priest in the flesh...." YI 4/ 19/04. Also, ".... He humbled himself, taking the nature of the fallen race" ST 1/13/04. And: "He knows by experience what are the weaknesses of humanity" (The Watchmman, Sept. 1910. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 1, 2009 Moderators Posted January 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Shane Was Mary just a surrogate mother or was Jesus actually formed using Mary's flesh? First, Jesus is God. He has always been God. There was never a time when Jesus was not God. He is Deity! True, I agree. He is both God and Man. Jesus is the God/Man. He is truly God and truly human. He does not merely appear to be, but really is human as much as you and I are human. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 2, 2009 Moderators Posted January 2, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 He is both God and Man. But He is God first and foremost. He never ceased being Himself. Quote: He does not merely appear to be, but really is human as much as you and I are human. No, only for a brief time (33 years) was Christ's Deity united to our humanity. After the resurrection He took to heaven a glorified, sinless, immortal humanity! I agree with your last statement, that Jesus' humanity is glorified, sinless and immortal, but I don't see how that contradicts my statement that Jesus is still a human being, as human as you and I are. His humanity is as human as the humanity of the glorified, immortal Moses, Enoch and Elijah. The difference is that Jesus is God, equal with the Father. Perhaps you believe I mean that Jesus still has the same sinful nature, but I believe Jesus' glorified, human nature is sinless exactly as ours will be after the Second Coming. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted January 2, 2009 Members Posted January 2, 2009 Excellent post. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Robert Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 His humanity is as human.... That's my point, it wasn't His humanity, it was our humanity. Jesus remained Himself. Much like when you accept Christ the Holy Spirit lives in you. He doesn't become you, but the two share one life - yours. Gal 4:4 says, "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, [why?] 5 to redeem those under law.... This says that the humanity Jesus assumed immediately came under the curse of the law. Why, did He sin? Keep in mind, "God made him who had no sin [Jesus as God] to be sin [as the son of mankind]...." That's not a pretend "sin". Also keep in mind that Lucifer was perfect until "iniquity was found in him". Paul calls it "sin living in me". Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 3, 2009 Moderators Posted January 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 His humanity is as human.... That's my point, it wasn't His humanity, it was our humanity. Jesus remained Himself. ... I believe we're in full agreement, perhaps using different words. Yes, Jesus assumed, or took, our humanity, and He is a human being now and will always remain a member of the human family. He is also fully God. Col. 2: 9; Heb. 1: 3, 10. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 ....He is a human being now and will always remain a member of the human family Yes, like Adam before the fall - but even better. Jesus left "sin" (our old humanity) in the grave. Again, it wasn't His humanity during those 33 years. Why? Look at the words: Heb 10:5 Therefore, when Christ [as God] came into the world [the human race], he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me... "The world" doesn't always mean the earth. Many times it means humanity. Besides this the language here is very clear. "A body" was prepared for who? Jesus as God. That "body" - that fallen life is our humanity. He came to dwell in us in order to redeem us from the curse of the law. If you say it was His fallen life, that would make Jesus a sinner. Quote
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