Raphael Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Hi, I was chewing over why would Lucifer 'alone', amongst the 'countless' numbers of ministering angels, fall into sin.. Then I had this inspired notion that it had to do with his 'final' or 'highest position' among created intelligences. He, alone (as a created being) experienced privileged closeness with God due to his position which led him to become somehow 'unprepared' in experiencing extreme close rapport with God, who turned out to be very unassuming, kind, friendly, intelligent, full of the light of life giving thoughts, desires and intentions. There are those instances or illustrations that one may compare this to, such as some people at certain distances are respectful and behave well but when at close rapport, which reveals the kind and 100% non threatening personality, somehow changes the mentioned individual to become less regarding or less respectful. In other words, distance can save a person from him or herself.. Anyway, the bright star Lucifer began to have the form of self pity for unfulfilled normal desires of better things (say, replacing God) without the ability to grow proper mind discipline to counter or correctly solve his lack of mental grasp.. He then began to mull around with this self pity for unknown eons of time, which is ofcourse in relation to 'pride', culminating in his final revolt and outcast from heaven. Most answers upon why sin originated was because of pride.. but I am trying to describe something more colorful and further than the simplistic answer. Ofcourse, in the end there will be no justifiable reason or excuse for sin but how it originated may be interesting and be sources of lesson for all eternity. God has this particular trait of testing, and the closer one gets to him the greater the advantages are, accompanied together with the tests that may bring along equivalently deep undesired consequences. This eternal characteristic of growth through tests in the universe will be be 'perfectly' countered by the fruits (the 'saints' or those saved) of the 'great experiment' which is produced on earth, providing eternal certainty that there will never be sin forever. Any further interesting and enlightening ideas? Happy Sabbath and a Happy New year 2009 Raphael Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that?
Moderators John317 Posted January 3, 2009 Moderators Posted January 3, 2009 Interesting suggestion but wouldn't that mean sin had a cause? Wouldn't a cause mean, then, that Lucifer wouldn't have sinned if he hadn't been placed in that situation by God? And God knew Lucifer's character-- so it seems that God should have known better than to put Lucifer in a position that he was unprepared for. It seems like Satan would have grounds for blaming God, wouldn't he? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Raphael Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 Nope, no cause that Lucifer can grieve about.. he didn't seek help, where I suppose it was not a customary thing done in a world of perfection.. Witnessing something most desirable and wishing something of it is a normal impulse for any intelligence but it doesn't simply end there. One cannot simply wish based on impulsive desires. To state that Lucifer was not perfect is not correct but the habit of seeking help which is only found in imperfect conditions such as we are in now was not existing, then, in that perfect world.. God puts people which naturally includes Lucifer in all kinds of positions, but with accompanying compensating opportunities to maintain integrity. ..now that really sounds no excuse for sin, even for us, though I always state attaining sainthood to be a process, but that perhaps is relevant to us who was not only born in sin but even more.. often unprivileged with proper righteous growing up experiences.. So, to conclude it, Lucifer was put in that position not without availing help. He did not seek help, whether that was not his habit due to his world of perfection (once again) or simply because of his pride, it still does not give him excuse for rebelling. AS for God, we all agree that He is all knowing and all seeing, past and future which means He knew this was coming before it happened and as we know, He does not intervene in the order of things but instead makes preparation in facing it.. I am simply adding more details as to why Lucifer alone fell and initiated sin.. that being close to God unlike the 'rest' has accompanying consequences. Just like believing in one's nation's president, it is easy to maintain proper attitude and performance at a distance but in continual interaction with him in close rapport, it brings us to eventually behave differently and somehow unintentionally bring disrespect (though in our world this may be tolerated to certain levels because perfection is not the objective but functionality). This does not apply if the boss was effectively frightening where God isn't except during His 'strange' work of the fire consuming hell. Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that?
Raphael Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 About sainthood being a process, I recall that Lucifer was granted that process opportunity which took 'unmeasured' time which he did not make good of.. Raphael Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that?
Robert Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 why would Lucifer 'alone'...fall into sin.. He invented sin! Ezekiel 28:14, 15. Sin originated in heaven in the mind of Lucifer, the head of the angelic beings. The Bible does not explain how sin could begin with a perfect being, because sin is unexplainable. Hence, it is referred to as “the mystery of iniquity.” Isaiah 14:12-14. The essence of Lucifer’s sin was self-exaltation, what the Bible defines as iniquity, which in Hebrew means bent to self [isaiah 53:6]. Hence, the love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape. Quote
Raphael Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 Right, sin was not natural then, and needed time and thought to form, that we may now witness. It did not come naturally by itself, it had to be even feverishly researched to achieve its best form. Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that?
Robert Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 it had to be even feverishly researched to achieve its best form. Sin began because Lucifer began to question God's agape love. He felt that "agape" love was too restrictive. You see God's love is self-emptying. There's no "self" in agape. That's why Christ could say, "The greatest among you shall be the servant of all." Lucifer rebelled against this. Instead he came to the conclusion that the greatest would the one being served. So he came up with the principle of self-love & self-seeking. Quote
Raphael Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 You are right Robert, in other words he came to desire what was not to be desired.. Godhead.. Summing it up in simplistic explanations like it was due to pride or selfishness is very appropriate and has already been well understood by most SDA members. The intriguing question was why amongst all created intelligences could it be him, becoming the culprit and instigator of sin. Was there anything particularly special about him that other created beings did not possess? The only answer was his highest commanding office as leader of all angels and as covering cherub to God the Almighty, providing intimate rapport and closeness with God the Creator in a way that was not granted or available to other created intelligent beings.. Raphael Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that?
Robert Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Summing it up in simplistic explanations like it was due to pride or selfishness is very appropriate... I must disagree. Sin didn't exist before Lucifer invented it. He invented pride - the love of self. He invented selfishness - self-seeking. He invented our bent-to-self. He invented this u-turn agape. He really thought that he was improving on God's love, but until put to the test it was all theory. Rob Quote
olger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 To explain iniquity is to defend it. It is a mystery for which no excuse can be given. og Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
tribeofjudah Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Interesting suggestion but wouldn't that mean sin had a cause? Wouldn't a cause mean, then, that Lucifer wouldn't have sinned if he hadn't been placed in that situation by God? And God knew Lucifer's character-- so it seems that God should have known better than to put Lucifer in a position that he was unprepared for. It seems like Satan would have grounds for blaming God, wouldn't he? Interesting. This goes back to free will and the question of loyalty and allegiance. Look at Gabriel...he surely was in the same exhalted position as Lucifer, but yet, he wasn't affected by pride and free will...and neither were the other 2/3 of angels. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 ... Interesting. This goes back to free will and the question of loyalty and allegiance. Look at Gabriel...he surely was in the same exhalted position as Lucifer, but yet, he wasn't affected by pride and free will...and neither were the other 2/3 of angels. You make an important point, tribe. It shows that the mere fact of Lucifer's being in an exalted position does not account for his sin. It was no cause for him to sin. In fact, there really is no explanation or cause. As soon as we say, "Lucifer sinned because....," we are giving sin a cause. Of course it is also probable that Gabriel learned some lessons from Lucifer's mistakes. Ellen White says that there were angels who still had some doubts about whether Lucifer was wrong clear up until they witnessed Lucifer kill Christ. Angels have learned a lot from what they've seen of how God deals with sin and Satan. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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