It's the culture?

[Gregory Matthews]

I have posted the following comment in another forum that more specificly deals with this subject. In the past, we have not been successful in Club Adventist in discussing this subject. It is a subject that touches people deep within their emotions. All to often we have degenerated into name calling, and such.

I post it here because I think it is an important issue. As you discuss it I ask that you neither degenerate into attacks on the Chruch, nor individuals who respond. If we can do that (which often has not happened in the past here in CA) perhaps we can come up with something useful. If not, this thread will have to be closed, as has happened in the past. And, it is likely that individual posts will have to be edited.

Because of my involvement in this other forum, and in posting this thread, I am posting it in a section that I do not moderate. That way I will not be subjectively involved in decision as to editing, or closing it.

Here it is:

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Recently I attended a church service where the guest pastor came from another country, and a distinctly different culture. He had been flown in so that the members could get a sense of what it was like to pastor a congregation in that part of the world.

He spoke on reconcillation--both with God, and with people. During his sermon he told the story of a member of his congregation who had been involved in an ongoing affair with a 14 year-old female. He had been discovered, and he refused to give her up. [NOTE: That indicates that he was not in violation of the law, or at least the customs of that country.] Finally his wife left him, and their two children in his care. She returened to her parental home. [NOTE: The 14 YO was her sister.] With the care of his two minor children, he decided to give up the 14 YO, and he pled for the return of his wife. With appropriate promises, admission of wrong doing, and requests for forgivness, she returned.

The congregation celebrated this example of reconcillation by electing him to the position of Deacon!

Folks, this illustrates the cultural problems that we face as we work in other areas of the world, and in other cultural situations. The preacher that day had no sense of the issues involved. I suspect that his conduct was probably considered normative in the country in which it happened.

How does one break through those cultural issues? How long will it take?

Gregory Matthews

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NOTE: The above has been slightly modified from what I posted in the other forum.

[Bravus]

In agreement with what Gregory wrote above, I will be moderating this particular thread with a high threshold for courtesy and avoidance of personal attacks. Feel free to express your opinion, but please choose your words carefully.

[Bravus]

I think this specific story needs to be considered as two separate issues: (1) an adulterous relationship and (2) a relationship with someone who is legally underage in some jurisdictions. We don't have too much trouble with the notion of someone who has committed adultery in the past being forgiven and restored into the church's 'good books'.

In relation to the underage issue, I don't think anyone would want to argue that a relationship between an adult and a 14 year old is in any way ideal or something to be applauded. But (a) it wasn't all that long ago in our own culture that 14 was considered an appropriate age for someone to be married, and ( a 14 year old is usually sexually fully developed, so such a relationship is not true pedophilia in the sense of sexual activity with a pre-pubescent person. The line is a legal and cultural one rather than a biological one.

I understand Gregory's question more broadly to be about what cultural differences can be explained as 'it's the culture' and which ones Christians need to seek to challenge. For example, there were Bible leaders who married two sisters, so if that option had been available maybe this guy would have made honest women of both of them!

It's a tough one, but I'd suggest Christians tended to go too far in the direction of claiming their own culture was what God required in the past two centuries, and we should tread carefully in this area now.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "It's a tough one, but I'd suggest Christians tended to go too far in the direction of claiming their own culture was what God required in the past two centuries, and we should tread carefully in this area now."

O.K. A fundamental issue is: What is the fuction of the Chruch in society? Should the Church blindly function within the cultural norms of a society? Should the Chruch be counter-culture advocating radical change in culture?

How does the Chruch interact within society to bring about change? What can the Church reasonable expect from native leadership in relationship to cultural norms, and personal spiritual growth?

[Bravus]

The Bravus mantra: Every culture on Earth contains something of Eden and something of the Fall. The Church has a role in affirming the former and challenging the latter.

Corrolary One: It's not always simple to tell which is which.

Corrolary Two: Those who are part of a culture have one perspective on which is which, those who are outsiders to the culture have another. It is by open-hearted dialogue between these perspectives that we're most likely to get it right.

Corrolary Three (slightly more controversial): There are also parts of every culture that are neutral and need not be either challenged or affirmed by the Church.

Corrolary Four: Challenges are much more effective when they're shown than told about: as one example, if Christian marriages were dramatically more stable and happy than worldly ones, that would be a much better way of championing the value of marriage than shouting about it.

[cricket]

Quote:

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a 14 year old is usually sexually fully developed, so such a relationship is not true pedophilia in the sense of sexual activity with a pre-pubescent person. The line is a legal and cultural one rather than a biological one.

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I would argue that a 14 YO is not fully sexually developed, especially in some of these other cultures. It is my understanding that children in third-world countries do not fully develop until around age 18. The reason? Not enough protein in their diets.

Even so, in our own culture a 14 YO girl typically is still underdeveloped. Able to have intercourse with a similarly developed young man--sure; but able to carry a baby to its full term and then be able to nurse it as it grows--extremely questionable.

The thought of pedophilia did not initially cross my mind when reading this thread. Adultery did cross my mind, however. Adultery sickened by the fact that this 14 YO was the wife's sister.

Unfortuately, I don't think this sort of thing will ever stop: no matter the number of times it is preached and taught not to do this. It is sinful, human nature.

Perhaps learning by experience, as this man did, is the only way to get it through our (yes, been there, done that) thick skulls.

[Guest]

I need to chew on this a bit more but am jumping in now about to do a belly flop..

There have been culture systems like Baal worshippers and Aztecs..

Rome went through a cultural evolution from the republic to Caesar and the coliseum games..

Cultures can align with the law of love or to certain degrees align with death...

The bible is counter culture to whatever is associated with hate, selfishnes and suffering.

Culture is a cop out term sometimes..

Some can say nudity is a part of culture or homosexuality is cultural..

Some say anything..

Would "Desperate Housewives" be a part of 50's TV culture??

[Nan]

Just tagging along, and a related situation but not specifically to this one - in the past I believe that SDA -at least Christian missionaries - have insisted that when a polygamist in another culture is converted, he keep only his original wife. This has left the other wives as outcasts in their society.

Just another example of how carefully we need to tread.

[Michelle]

Nan--yes, the SDA church in the past insisted on this. Currently, though, the church has changed its stance on polygamy in regards people becoming converted who are already in a polygamous relationship. (though I don't know what would happen if someone in a polygamous "culture" who became Christian THEN decided to add another wife.)

M

[Fran]

Gregory;

Quote:

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He spoke on reconciliation--both with God, and with people. During his sermon he told the story of a member of his congregation

[:"blue"]who had been involved in an ongoing affair with a 14 year-old female. He had been discovered, and he refused to give her up. [NOTE: That indicates that he was not in violation of the law, or at least the customs of that country.] Finally his wife left him, and their two children in his care. She returned to her parental home. [NOTE: The 14 YO was her sister.] With the care of his two minor children, he decided to give up the 14 YO, and he pled for the return of his wife. With appropriate promises, admission of wrong doing, and requests for forgiveness, she returned.

[/]

The congregation celebrated this example of reconciliation by electing him to the position of Deacon!

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I challenge your assumption in your first NOTE. If it was culturally acceptable act, why did he:

Quote:

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admission of wrong doing, and requests for forgiveness,

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before his wife would return and he would be appointed a Deacon. If, as you noted it was a cultural action, he obviously knew it was wrong. Maybe because he had a knowledge of Christ's culture and had taken on this new culture. As a member of the congregation, I assume he was acquainted with the culture of Christ or he would not have stopped his action and he would have not asked for forgiveness.

Therefore, it could have been the local worldly culture and he was aware of the; but on the other hand, he knew he had sinned against God's culture and turned away form his activity with the 14 year old sister-in-law, admitted wrong doing and asked for forgiveness.

[Nicodema]

Is it culture? Maybe.

However ...

So was worshipping idols.

So was sacrificing children in the fire to Molech.

So were a lot of other abominations which God drew a distinguishing line against and said, "MY people shall NOT do these things."

No doubt to those cultures in those times it appeared heinous to have what they considered normal opposed by those they considered "outsiders" (and weirdo ones at that).

So let's keep this in perspective.

A 14 year old girl is not emotionally mature enough to make a healthy, objective, ADULT decision about her own sexual feelings, even if she appears physically matured and is exhibiting sexual interest at that age. In fact she is even more vulnerable and susceptible in many ways precisely because she CAN be seduced on the strength of her very natural hormones and sexual impulses while lacking adult judgment to balance her perspective.

Maybe "is it culture?" is not the question here. Maybe the question should be "is it abuse?" and if the answer is yes, we should then ask ourselves whether cultural respect is important enough to warrant tolerance of such a thing. Personally, I don't feel that it does.