SDA Mother Returns to Children from Combat in Iraq

[Gregory Matthews]

See: www.atoday.com/content/soldier-mom-returns-iraq

As an alternative try the following:

http://by120w.bay120.mail.live.com/mail/inboxlight.aspx?folderid=00000000-0000-

0000-0000-000000000001&inboxsortascending=false&inboxsortby=date&n=747251405

Go to the bottomof the page and click onthe links there.

If this does not work, I do not know.

[Gregory Matthews]

For a brief statement:

"The Tennessean reports:

A nine-month military tour in Iraq behind her, Becki Louden returned home Saturday to her four children, husband and church family. "It's hard for a mom," Louden said after a ceremony to welcome her home at her Seventh Day Adventist Church on Elam Road south of Murfreesboro.

A sergeant first class, Louden served in the 2145th GSU Garrison Support Unit at Camp Victory. She worked as an administrative assistant for a colonel overseeing several bases around the Baghdad International Airport.

She won a Bronze Star for the support she offered other soldiers, said her husband, Perry Louden.

"I'm very proud of her," said Perry, who retired after 20 years as a sergeant first class in the U.S. Army Reserve and, like his wife, served a tour of duty in Iraq in the military police from February 2003 to April 2004.

Becki told the church members how the food they sent in care packs to her served as snacks during those Christian movie nights.

"I was surrounded by several Christians," said Becki, who has served in the Army Reserve for 13 years, including her first deployment in Iraq. "I just wanted people to experience God in their own lives and to have peace in their lives even in a war zone."

[olger]

If the woman is in actual combat, bearing arms (weapons) then there are two reasons to be disappointed in this account.

According to Jan Paulson, our official church stance is non-combatancy.

[Gregory Matthews]

Olger:

The official stand of the SDA Chruch in North AMerica is a recommendation that SDAs be non-combatants. However, the official stand does NOT stop there. It continues on to include that the choice is a personal choice that is made between the individual and God. Then, it goes on to state that no discipline shouldd be taken against those who are either pacifists or full combatants and that each should be entitled to full ministry.

The reality is that non-combatancy is no longer an issue with our SDA youth today. They enlist in the Armed Services in droves. It has been years since someone has ever wanted to discuss non-combatancy with me. With a few exceptions (Chaplains are one)every person serving in the militayr is a full combatant. Your comment that "if" she was fails to understand the reality of the present. It is highly unlikely (almost totally unlikely) that she was not a full combatant.

Further, you will note that I made the statement in regard to North America. In some parts of the world the denominaiton has never had a non-combatant privlige. '

Yes, I am aware that individuals have takens such at times. I have personally seen the scars on the back of a SDA that were left there by his military officers due to the beatings that he recieved for standing up for issues of belief related to his stand as a SDA. In such a context would you criticize that individual if, for example, he took a stand on the Sabbath but not on non-combtancy? NOTE: Due to the faithful witness of SDAs in that country, it recently enacted into law a provision that allows sincere people to serve in a non-combatant status. I will not mention the name of that country as it would not be wise to do so. In any case, my point may be that you may not realize some of these issues as they relate to people who live in other countries.

But, to get back to my point: In North America our young people no longer have non-combatancy as an issue. It is a rare SDA who even gives it a thought. Those who do simply stay out of the military--with the rare exceptions such as chaplains for one example.

NOTE: International convention requires that military chaplains be non-combatant. Any military chapalin serves in an armed capacity can be subjected to severe consequences for doing so. (NOTE: I say that becasue I am aware of some who have violated the conventions.)

[nuff sed]

MY father was one who was instrumental in obtaining the release of three sailors who refused to go out and cut brush on the Sabbath ( busy work)... The were flown from Panama to the Portsmouth Naval Prison in New Hampshire. My father was the Northern New England Conference Secretary-Treasurer... It's a rather long story. I wish that my father had written it up. After my father visited them in prison a couple of times he sent the information to the General Conference I forget the man's name who went directly to the Secretary of the Navy with the result that all the sailors were returned to duty and charges dropped. One man wrote a book about the incident. It was published by the Review and Herald, I believe.

[Gregory Matthews]

Service in the military is not easy for most who take a traditional, conservative, view of military service. There are people who have converted during thier military service and who have paid a price for standing firm for what they beleived. I have personally (I am not neglecting God's involvement.) kept people our of prison and gotton honorable discharges for them--some of whom were not SDA but of other beliefe (such as Jehovah's Witness).

We must remember that the denomination teaches that people are individually responsible to grapple with Biblical issues and to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. In addition, the Christian life is a life of growth. Where a person who is being led by the HS is today may not be where they are tomorrow. In this aspect, the position of the SDA Church (in North AMerica) is that combatancy or non-combatancy is an individual decision. The person who makes that decision is to be welcomed in the SDA Church regardles of what that decision is. However, the recommendation is that service be in a non-combatant capicity.

In the military, one is only given religious rights based upon there personal belief--not the teaching of the denomination. It would have been the "kiss of death" for me to advocate granting a right for a soldier based upon denominational teaching as opposed to the positon of the soldier. So, as a matter of fact, I have worked to get a soldier off on Saturday morning to attand church who was willing to perform duty on Saturday afternoon. That was where he was at. That was all that I could advocate. In that case I stood ready to go back again and advocata for Saturday afternoon off when he reached that point in his spiritula journey.

[John317]

You and people like you in the military are true heroes in my book. I served in the army and sometimes had a hard time getting Sabbaths off, so I know first hand about those problems our servicemen experience in the military. I always enjoyed being able to go over to the chaplain's office and spend a few hours reading the Bible on the Sabbath, especially when at Ft. Ord. The chaplain wasn't SDA but you wouldn't have known it by the way he worked to try to get SDA servicemen their freedom to keep the Sabbath.

My impression is that some First-Sergeants and CO's try to make it hard on you just to see how serious you are about the Sabbath.

[Gregory Matthews]

And when were you at Ft. Ord?

My fisrst assignment as a chapalin was sto Ft. Ord. I First worked with basic trainees.

Gregory Matthews.

[nuff sed]

"Sabbath-keepers" have no business in the armed forces. When there was a "Draft" in this country accomodations could be made for those who would not bear arms and worshipped on the Sabbath. However.......this is not the case when you JOIN the military of your own free will. When you sign your name on the dotted line you have given up your non-combatant rights and your right to honor God by keeping the Sabbath....... I don't care how patriotic you are, IMO, Seventh-day Adventists have no business being in the Military...except as Chaplains.

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K.

Would you add physicians and other medical personnel?

Keep in mind the person who converts while in the service.

Two issues: Sabbath keeping & non-combatency. For the typical SDA of military age, non-combatency is not a consideration. And, the typical young person of today (in the U.S.) considers sAbbath keeping in a different manner than you and I did when we were their age.

NOTE: It is not that I disagre with you. I openly tell people that a SDA who has a tradlitional (conservative) view of Sabbath-keeping should not enlist in the military (with some rare exceptions as I have stated).

[John317]

And when were you at Ft. Ord?

My fisrst assignment as a chapalin was sto Ft. Ord. I First worked with basic trainees.

Gregory Matthews.

I was bussed there at 3 AM on the morning of Nov. 17, 1968.

Were you on the hill? I heard horror stories about the Drill Sergeants up on the hill, but I was sent to Ft. Sam about Thanksgiving Day.

[olger]

"Sabbath-keepers" have no business in the armed forces. When there was a "Draft" in this country accomodations could be made for those who would not bear arms and worshipped on the Sabbath. However.......this is not the case when you JOIN the military of your own free will. When you sign your name on the dotted line you have given up your non-combatant rights and your right to honor God by keeping the Sabbath....... I don't care how patriotic you are, IMO, Seventh-day Adventists have no business being in the Military...except as Chaplains.

[Gregory Matthews]

I was there as a chaplain in 1974.

[nuff sed]

Thanx Gregory........I specified "Only Chaplains' for a reason. I think that physicians in the military could fall into the trap or having to go onto "regular schedules" doing the routine things that could be done on other days. They cannot pick and choose what they will do just because it is the Sabbath. You might as well know that I likewise have issue with non-military medical personnel who choose to do three twelve-hour shifts over the weekend so that they can have the rest of the week free... or take a second job.

[phkrause]

But Gladussee, only God knows what's in there hearts, to the reason that they do what they do.

pk

[John317]

I was there as a chaplain in 1974.

I loved that place, except for the mess hall where I did a couple weeks of KP. It was right near the ocean and I could see the guys in Basic Training jogging and doing drills along the beaches.

Last time I was through there, it was like a ghost town. I have good memories of it when it was full of life and busy as a bee hive.

[perry]

I came across your post a couple of days ago. Probably no one will see my reply since this a year later, but for the record, my wife and I both had every Sabbath off and we were never required to do any combat related duties while in Iraq. She was a record specialist at her unit which was tasked to run Camp Victory and I worked as an MP Customs agent. Many Adventists serve their country honorably who are not Chaplains or Medical personal. It is difficult for Adventists to stay true to God and serve their country, but it is NOT impossible. The official denominational policy is to allow individuals to follow their own conscience in military service. I read the article about non-competency and found it to be lacking in addressing the issue of what a Seventh-day Adventist can accomplish for the Lord in the military. Many have come to know our faith through Adventists in the military. My wife received the Bronze Star and everyone in her unit knew she was an Adventists. Many Adventists has been highly decorated for their efforts, not just Desmond Doss, but many others. Adventists in the military need lots of prayer and understanding, and less criticism about Sabbath breaking and carrying arms (I think Peter carried a sword). I don’t encourage Adventists to enlist, but I totally support that ones that are in. See http://www.adventistchaplains.org/ for questions related to Adventists in the military.

[Guest]

Wow....I didn't know that.

[Overaged]

I have been a church member for over 20 years; with a "vacation" for a while, but basically the time frame here is only in reference to how long I have known a good friend I have in the army. He has seen active combat a number of times, including recently in Afghanistan.

No matter where he was sent in the world; he always seemed to manage to pack a few spirit of prophecy books. And no matter what kinds of situations he was in; someone would inevitably ask: "What are you reading?"

There are some who make the best out of a bad situation; and others, who while sitting on the sidelines, posting bravely on forums, how "Adventists have no business in active combat;" and generally making it from bad to worse.

I used to know "a true Adventist" who actually told me in person (if he was in a country where there was a war going on) that rather than defend against the culprits who were about to rape and kill his wife and kids, he would surrender to "God's will." That was a "what if;" but the point, I think, is made very well. He was a very firm "noncombatant."

Which would you vote for? The Adventist "in active combat," or the Adventist with no wife and kids?

BTW, the guy with no wife and kids died of a heart attack way before he needed to because he wouldn't listen to heart surgeons who didn't "have the truth."

PS The story enclosed above about that lady who just got back from Iraq was excellent. It shows God at work "even in a place like that."

[olger]

"Sabbath-keepers" have no business in the armed forces. When there was a "Draft" in this country accomodations could be made for those who would not bear arms and worshipped on the Sabbath. However.......this is not the case when you JOIN the military of your own free will. When you sign your name on the dotted line you have given up your non-combatant rights and your right to honor God by keeping the Sabbath....... I don't care how patriotic you are, IMO, Seventh-day Adventists have no business being in the Military...except as Chaplains.

A-MEN

g

[perry]

Current Army Regulation provides for religious accommodations including Sabbath keeping. A soldier does not give up his or her rights to their religious practices when they join the military even without a draft. Personally I feel your statement that a soldier give up their right "to honor God by keeping the Sabbath" in the military is totally incorrect. As for non-competency, most soldiers never see actual combat and there are many support fields that are involved in helping others. Yes, they must carry a weapon, but if you condemn an Adventist cook in the army because he had to carry a weapon, what about Adventists who are police officers, corrections officers, school resource officers, park rangers, or hunters? I challenge you to find any reference by Mrs. White condemning a specific soldier for his service. If you would like, I could give you some quotes to the contrary.

AR 600-20, para 5-6 states:

"The Army places a high value on the rights of its Soldiers to observe tenets of their respective religious faiths.

The Army will approve requests for accommodation of religious practices unless accommodation will have an adverse

impact on unit readiness, individual readiness, unit cohesion, morale, discipline, safety, and/or health."

"(1) Worship practices. Some religious groups have worship requirements that conflict with the Soldier’s normal

availability for duty; for example worship on days other than Saturday or Sunday, a 25-hour Sabbath, or special holy

days or periods. These will be accommodated except when precluded by military necessity. If the time required for

religious worship falls within normal duty hours or duty rosters, the Soldier may request exception from those hours

and rosters. The Soldier, however, must be prepared to perform alternative duty or duty hours. Commanders may grant

ordinary leave as an option to Soldiers who desire to observe lengthy holy periods or days."

[phkrause]

I came across your post a couple of days ago. Probably no one will see my reply since this a year later, but for the record, my wife and I both had every Sabbath off and we were never required to do any combat related duties while in Iraq. She was a record specialist at her unit which was tasked to run Camp Victory and I worked as an MP Customs agent. Many Adventists serve their country honorably who are not Chaplains or Medical personal. It is difficult for Adventists to stay true to God and serve their country, but it is NOT impossible. The official denominational policy is to allow individuals to follow their own conscience in military service. I read the article about non-competency and found it to be lacking in addressing the issue of what a Seventh-day Adventist can accomplish for the Lord in the military. Many have come to know our faith through Adventists in the military. My wife received the Bronze Star and everyone in her unit knew she was an Adventists. Many Adventists has been highly decorated for their efforts, not just Desmond Doss, but many others. Adventists in the military need lots of prayer and understanding, and less criticism about Sabbath breaking and carrying arms (I think Peter carried a sword). I don’t encourage Adventists to enlist, but I totally support that ones that are in. See http://www.adventistchaplains.org/ for questions related to Adventists in the military.

This is good to know Perry. I know that when I served my country during the Vietnam conflict, I could've probably gotten the Sabbath off had I really tried. Having been a medic I didn't think that it matter. I knew most RNs and Doctors worked or helped the sick on Sabbath. I was an emergency medic and didn't work in a hospital per say. So I considered that being on call at the time. But to be really honest about it I think I didn't even want to have any hassle about it.

pk

[Gregory Matthews]

Perry: I am uncertain as to whether you were taking issue with what I posted of with what some others posted.

Yes, the people of this nation owe you and your wife a vote of thanks for your service to your country.

Yes, many SDAs have servered honorably and been decorataed for their service. During Viet Nam the son of one of the pastors who was employed in the Conference where I worked earned the Silver Star. The Bronze Star that your wife earned shows that she served well. That medal is not given to all who serve in combat--it is only given to combat veterans for those who do not know.

Yes, the official, as I have stated, position of the church is to allow people to make an individualo decision as to military service and the manner in which it occurs.

Yes, Ellen White supported two employees of a SDA publishing house in serving in the military in their country in a combatant position.

[Gregory Matthews]

Perry, we live in a time when the SDA chruch has people as members who hold to a range of belief and life style. I personally support that. There are issues that I believe must be left to God and the individual. And, we are all on a spiritual journey and presently less than God would desire for us.

From that standpoint, only some of our members are those who could be called "traditional" Adventists. That is O.K. to me. But, I havea to say, that those who are what I call traditional Adventists are most likely to have problems with military service and should therefore not enlist in the military.

That has always been true. When the draft was on traditional SDAs often had problems as their rights were NOT guaranteed to practice their beliefs as they typically wanted to practice them. That continues to this day.

You and your wife may not have experienced such. Thank you Lord for that. But that will not be the case for all.

Agani, than you for the service that you and your wife have given your country.

[Kevin H]

I came across your post a couple of days ago. Probably no one will see my reply since this a year later, but for the record, my wife and I both had every Sabbath off and we were never required to do any combat related duties while in Iraq. She was a record specialist at her unit which was tasked to run Camp Victory and I worked as an MP Customs agent. Many Adventists serve their country honorably who are not Chaplains or Medical personal. It is difficult for Adventists to stay true to God and serve their country, but it is NOT impossible. The official denominational policy is to allow individuals to follow their own conscience in military service. I read the article about non-competency and found it to be lacking in addressing the issue of what a Seventh-day Adventist can accomplish for the Lord in the military. Many have come to know our faith through Adventists in the military. My wife received the Bronze Star and everyone in her unit knew she was an Adventists. Many Adventists has been highly decorated for their efforts, not just Desmond Doss, but many others. Adventists in the military need lots of prayer and understanding, and less criticism about Sabbath breaking and carrying arms (I think Peter carried a sword). I don’t encourage Adventists to enlist, but I totally support that ones that are in. See http://www.adventistchaplains.org/ for questions related to Adventists in the military.

When I graduated from Andrews to unemployment I felt I had no other choice but to go into the military. While I wish I had just joined the Air Force and stayed active duty, joining was one of the best choices I ever made. My ministry has been to work with the aeromedical evacuation, to help to get the wounded out of the war zone. I've been to desert shield and desert storm, then was in Germany meeting the planes from mostly Iraq and Iran in helping to get the wounded home, not sure when or where I'll be sent next, but I will gladly go. Thank you Pery and your wife for the work you have done, as well as to others in the millitary who serve. Those of you back home here, please remember the USO and check out volunteering at the VA hospitals and cemeteries.

A Pathfinder leader in her home church was on duty over seas as a medic and staying at a place that was attacked by terrorists. Dispite she herself being wounded, she did not realize she was wounded as she was going around treating the other wounded.