Time and God

[Tom Wetmore]

I think the nature of heavenly beings, God and angels is an interesting branch of this blossoming topic. I propose some ideas for taking this into a new topic so we can stick to the time focus in this one. Feel free to think of a thought stimulating question and start a new topic.

And although the openness theology and God's foreknowledge have strong time elements, that topic could also be a fruitful area to inspire some original thought.

[Ellen]

We had this topic in class recently. In trying to make it simple and "close to home" I just said it's like God can run a video (or DVD) and fast forward it or rewind it; that's why he can't make a mistake in prophecy - He knows for sure the incidents and how they will end.

It still doesn't explain where we are in the scheme of things. Has our DNA gone ahead of us and we're living it in slow motion?

[Ellen]

I'm sure everyone reading this section knows time is the motion of the planet around the sun etc.

The Bible is ONLY written for this this earth. Do you realize there were no commandments when Abraham walked this earth.

The first words of Genesis were Written AFTER generations from Abraham. It's all there for mortals to make sense of what God is, has done and will do in our language.

if Heaven is a planet "out there" it would have time. If it isn't what could it be?

[phkrause]

I agree with you 100%. Adam and Eve walked, talked and ate with God.

pk

[Tom Wetmore]

It would seem that considering Gods' Commandments or laws before they were etched in stone at Sinai and how they might be in other worlds could be a fruitful idea for another topic, but I do like to see how a good segue can reconnect and keep us on the topic at hand.

Tying together the idea of commandments and time and other places in the vast universe, the one time bound commandment of the big ten, #4, has raised interesting speculation about observing Sabbath in heaven, other worlds, or even in the new earth as described in Revelation, chapters 21 and 22, as a place without any sun or without night. It would be difficult to mark Sabbath's start and end with no sunset. And with varible orbits and rate of spin on other planets, even in our own solar system, Sabbaths could hardly be on a universal schedule.

[olger]

This topic has come up many years ago... In the meantime, suffice it to say that the City (New Jerusalem on the New Earth) is described as needing no sun or moon, because the "glory of God" is the light. We ought to understand the difference between the New Jerusalem and the new earth. They are not identical objects.

Furthermore wetmore () the text does not say that the sun & moon cease to exist, but rather that they are not needed "in the City."

Isaiah tells us the Sabbath WILL be observed in new earth & the universe. How the seven-day cycle is marked is best left up to our Father, who has the situation under divine control.

[Tom Wetmore]

Valid point, (albeit beyond the time related point) God outshines the sun so it may not be needed for light anymore nor perhaps its life sustaining role for earth since God has made the new earth his home. But it still says there will be no night there, which could suggest some alteration of the evening and the morning daily cycle.

Of course, as with most things in Revelation, what is spoken of as the New Jerusalem, especially noting how it is described, is symbolic of God's people, the redeemed. So one could understand it simply as the saints settling on the earth made new again.

Not needing sun or moon or the absense of night because God dwells with men likewise has symbolic significance likely beyond our time topic.

But Revelation may be another fruitful topic.

Some have suggested an eternal Sabbath and if God never turns the lights out so we can see the passage of the sun through the sky as the earth turns, it may effectively say that the Sabbath doesn't pass into night.

As for the weekly seven day cycle, that was created at the begining. Do you suppose that God creates all worlds using the same seven day sequence? The point I was making was that since we can observe that the orbits and the rate planets revolve is variable which would make the respective seven days variable as well.

[True-believer]

I thank our God all the time for the weekly Sabbath rest, why, because I need it and we all need it.

I am so glad i've seen the truth before it was too late...

Oh no...

I'm starting to get Reformed ideas: www.sdarm.org.au

They are the very first people I met right here in Adelaide, South Australia.

They introduced me to the Mainstream sda, and I am so thankful, because i'm here to stay, hidden in the truth of Jesus Christ.

[Bravus]

It's not just the the sun burns out, though, and isn't needed: in the process it expands out to beyond the earth's orbit and engulfs the earth.

All the answers make sense, in that they all seem to say 'it's God's problem and he can sort it', but they should at least address the actual phenomena.

[Stan]

I have a suspicion that the time for the day that we have, was designed in such a way that is working elsewhere in the universe. Plants need rest as well.

[Jerry D Thomas]

What an interesting exercise in using human words and concepts to describe things (and beings) beyond human experience! Too often we tend to think of God as "Super-human", that is, "human, only better, stronger, wiser." But God is "Not-human." He (It) is something else entirely.

[phkrause]

It seems to me that time was created at least as to respect's to this world, at creation. Didn't God divide the day from the night. And set up the 7 day week which would equal 24 day periods, etc. I believe as far as this earth is concerned Eve sinned after creation, therefore the time period that we know was already part of the earth. Satan himself may have sinned in heaven before creation of this earth, but God created this earth with our cycle of time before sin enter the earth.

pk

[Bravus]

A number of people in this thread seem to be confused between time itself and our system of measuring time. Years, months, days, are effectively all features of our planet and moon's place in our solar system, but these are ways of measuring time, they are not time itself. Weeks have a very, very long history but don't tie to any specific astronomical cycle, which many people see as evidence for their being instituted by God. Hours (and their derived units minutes and seconds) are a convenient but human-developed way of dividing up the day into managable bites.

All of these are ways of measuring time, as a metre (which is entirely human-defined, or an Astronomical Unit, which is not, are ways of measuring length), but they are not time itself.

If our solar system was created in creation week, then these things (the natural ones) were instituted then, but if our universe had existed prior to creation week (opinion on this is very split here), then there must have been space-time to allow the universe to exist, stars to undergo the fusion process to emit light and so on. Without time, nothing happens... so a universe without time basically cannot exist - at least if it's a matter universe like this one.

[phkrause]

Good thought provoking post. I believe that universe was here before God created this piece of it, with our earth etc. I'm not sure that time outside of our earth can be broken down. I think time has no relevance to God, as far as seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years are concerned. I think about the people that have died, some for thousands of years. Others just days, or so ago. When Jesus comes to get us, for them it will be like the next moment of there lives. And obviously for those alive, depending how old they are, it could many long and hard years. That's kind of what I think time is like to God.

pk

[Beryl]

I know this post is a little out of sequence, but, then, I do come from both the other side, and the other end of the world, so your time is not my time!!!

I think we make a mistake when we apply Rev. 21:25 [referring to no night] to the whole New Earth. Reading it in context (Revelation 21:22-27) it seems to me that that is ONLY speaking of the New Jerusalem.

In the book, Great Controversy, last chapter, pp 674 - 678, we get a larger picture, where we have our country homes, complete with the sun, moon and stars.

It is worth the read!

Beryl

[Tom Wetmore]

I think the references in Revelation to the markers of time, such as the moon, stars and sun are symbolic of a deeper meaning, which may tell us something about time, and likely should not be taken too literally. (The broader symbolism of Revelation would be a fruitful topic for discussion here, if anyone is willing to get it rolling.)

Keeping within our context in this topic, what is it about time, as we know it, that is a problem, that an earth made new would rectify? Those natural time markers identified in Revelation may give a symbolic hint...

[Beryl]

I would expect that the New Earth will be very much the same as God's first creation of the earth. After all, He made a perfect world -- why would He want to change it? We are told that the Garden of Eden was taken to heaven before the flood, and has been kept there ready to be brought back to this earth as the home of Adam and Eve. We know that the Holy city will also be brought to earth. But, apart from that, God originally created a perfect world for this planet. Why would he want to change that perfect plan?

Beryl

[nuff sed]

Exactly where are we told that [the Garden of Eden was taken to heaven]?

[Woody]

AH 539

Not sure if this was what you wanted Glad.

[phkrause]

If it is or not Red, he's got it now!!!!!

pk

[Tom Wetmore]

So does anyone have any thoughts on the question I asked about what negative factors about time, as we currently know it, might be rectified in an earth made new?

What are some things that might be considered bad about or as a result of time?

Perhaps looking at the question in the opposite direction could help focus our thinking. What are the positive benefits or good aspects of time as we currently experience it? What do we gain as time passes? What are some good things about being time bound humans?

[melvin mccarty]

One thing we do not know is the original rotational speed of the moon and earth. Possibly the moon's rotation around the earth was faster so a month was 4 weeks or was it arranged so that the moon was always full? The moon has been battered so badly (earth too) that we don't know what the original plan was...mel

[Bravus]

All of the chemical and electrical processes that make our life even possible are cause-and-effect processes, and since effects must come after causes, are time-bound. We could not be as we are and still live without time. We would have to be transformed into a non-material form like God's to be able to survive without time... and then we might be 'as gods' ourselves...

Bottom line, I think we're stuck with time.

That doesn't have to mean stuck with aging, though - there's a very specific process that causes us to age, which if switched off could allow us to endlessly renew our bodies forever. There are already mice that live as long as many generations of their relatives.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am not so sure that anything can really escape time. Even describing a completely static state requires a concept of time. Frozen in time, so to speak.

We seem to be operating from a premise that God is outside of time. But maybe it is that God simply experiences, or sees time differently from us.

As I think about my questions I begin to see that the negative aspects I associate with time are not so much the fault of time itself but because of a limit on time...

Not enough time... Time's up... I don't have the time... I have to hurry because I am running out of time... That which begins always has an end for us... we are born, we die. No time for reflection...

Now imagine time without end... No limit on time. Imagine life, relationships, learning, conversations, journeys, love... if time had no limits, no ending, no need to hurry... no worry that this too shall pass. What would that be like?

[Tom Wetmore]

Living in the moment. Children seem to do be able to do it...

What is it about living in the moment?

Time doesn't matter. It is immaterial to the complete joy of living.

Time is immaterial to God.

God meets man. God becomes man. God lives with man with no time limit...