Two Covenants

[True-believer]

Hello everyone...

Could you all please help me out to help my stepdad and mum to explain to them the difference between the two covenants?

My stepdad has just recieved info about the Ten Commandments being the first covenant, which we know to be false...

Can you all please respond back to this so I can cut and paste these comments to an email to both my stepdad and my mum.

With the Ten Commandments being the first covenant it actually cancels itself out...

But we know for certain thats not true...

They are only looking at this one-sidedly, from the pentecostal and exadventist point of views which are clearly not biblical.

So please help me out???

Thankyou my brothers and sisters for helping me.

[phkrause]

I believe Luke that the TC are part of both Covenants. The OC is a covenant of flesh, in the NC he puts them into our hearts. Obviously its not that simple there's more to it. But that's the way that I've always read it and heard it. There are others that can explain it with more detail. I don't need things to be complex.

pk

[John317]

The Ten Commandments are the legal basis of both covenants. They are what both agreements are about. The Old, or first, covenant was based on the people's promise to obey the commandments of God. See Exodus 19: 8. (It's called the first covenant because it was the first to be ratified-- by the blood of animals.) Ex. 24: 6-12.

Under the Old Covenant, the people promised to keep the law of God, not realizing that no one can obey God without His grace and power. Under the New, God promises to write the same law of love by His Spirit on our hearts and on our minds. See Hebrews 8: 10; 10: 16. The Bible calls these "better promises." Hebrews 8: 6.

[Robert]

Under the Old Covenant, the people promised to keep the law of God, not realizing that no one can obey God without His grace and power. Under the New, God promises to write the same law of love by His Spirit on our hearts and on our minds. See Hebrews 8: 10; 10: 16. The Bible calls these "better promises." Hebrews 8: 6.

Then why aren't you living Christ's self-emptying life? Why so much self-love?

No, John, the NC was fulfilled "in Christ". Yes, I will experience growth, but that isn't what the NC is based on. It is based on the doing and dying of Christ. Since I was "in Him" His life is my life. "In Christ" I have answered the law. All other definitions are heresies, period!

Rob

[True-believer]

1st Covenant is the people making a promise in the flesh, and the 2nd Covenant is made by God for us to keep not in the flesh but in the spirit.

[melvin mccarty]

Semantics of course but I understand that under the New Covenant God offers a new heart that can love as He loves so that the 10 are redundant. The new heart is offered to all his children. ....mel

[Neil D]

1st Covenant is the people making a promise in the flesh, and the 2nd Covenant is made by God for us to keep not in the flesh but in the spirit.

I am going to put my oar into this....if it helps your step dad, great...if not, ignore it...

Tell him to open his bible to the Table of Contents.

The OT is the first covenant. It contains the rules for a relationship between God and man. It was ratified by the blood of animals.

The NT is the 2nd covenant. It also contains the rules for a relationship between God and man. It was ratified by the blood of Jesus.

In the OT, it explains what a covenant is, how it is to be administered, how the relationships were being dealt with by various people under various circumstances. It give some very minute details as to how things are to be done, to the point where a culture grew up around those minute details.

In the NT, the covenant deals with relationships and the removal of those cultural minute details. It keeps the major relationships laws [ie the 10 commandments] and explains them from both inside the culture and outside the culture.

That's the simplistic explanation of those covenants. Hope that helps.

[John317]

1st Covenant is the people making a promise in the flesh, and the 2nd Covenant is made by God for us to keep not in the flesh but in the spirit.

You got it.

[John317]

Semantics of course but I understand that under the New Covenant God offers a new heart that can love as He loves so that the 10 are redundant. The new heart is offered to all his children. ....mel

I think that's a good way to put it.

As we stay in a personal, faith-based relationship with Him, He promises to make us more and more like Christ, conforming our characters to His law of love.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Under the Old Covenant, the people promised to keep the law of God, not realizing that no one can obey God without His grace and power. Under the New, God promises to write the same law of love by His Spirit on our hearts and on our minds. See Hebrews 8: 10; 10: 16. The Bible calls these "better promises." Hebrews 8: 6.

No, John, the NC was fulfilled "in Christ". Yes, I will experience growth, but that isn't what the NC is based on. It is based on the doing and dying of Christ. Since I was "in Him" His life is my life. "In Christ" I have answered the law. All other definitions are heresies, period!

Rob

The Old Covenant was based on God's saving Israel out of Egypt. The legal basis was the Ten Commandments, which He wrote on stone tablets. God promised that they would be His people. He gave them His law, and they promised to obey it. They failed because they thought they could obey it on their own.

The New Covenant is based on God's sending Christ to save His people from sin by His doing, dying, and resurrection. The legal basis was the Ten Commandments. God promises that we will be His people if we choose to accept Him as our God. He promises that He will write His law by His Spirit on our hearts and on our minds. It's the same law that Christ obeyed and fulfilled.

Romans 8: 3, 4 sums it up--

Quote:

The written law was made weak by our sinful nature. But God did what the written law could not do. He made his Son to be like those who have a sinful nature. He sent him to be an offering for sin. In that way, he judged sin in his Son's human body. 4 Now we can do everything the law requires. Our sinful nature no longer controls the way we live. The Holy Spirit now controls the way we live.

Please notice the wonderful relationship between what Christ did on the cross and what Christ is doing right now in the heavenly sanctuary, as an essential part of the New Covenant:

Hebrews 4: 14-16--

Quote:

14 We have a great high priest. He has gone up into the heavens. He is Jesus the Son of God. So let us hold firmly to what we say we believe.

15 We have a high priest who can feel it when we are weak and hurting. We have a high priest who has been tempted in every way, just as we are. But he did not sin. 16 So let us boldly approach the throne of grace. Then we will receive mercy. We will find grace to help us when we need it.

[Robert]

The written law was made weak by our sinful nature. But God did what the written law could not do. He made his Son to be like those who have a sinful nature. He sent him to be an offering for sin. In that way, he judged sin in his Son's human body. 4 Now we can do everything the law requires. Our sinful nature no longer controls the way we live. The Holy Spirit now controls the way we live.

Please notice the wonderful relationship between what Christ did on the cross and what Christ is doing right now in the heavenly sanctuary, as an essential part of the New Covenant:

Your translation is invalid. Also, as wonderful as growth is it will not save me. Therefore, as I stated, the NC is based on what Christ did in my corporate humanity 2000 years ago.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The written law was made weak by our sinful nature. But God did what the written law could not do. He made his Son to be like those who have a sinful nature. He sent him to be an offering for sin. In that way, he judged sin in his Son's human body. 4 Now we can do everything the law requires. Our sinful nature no longer controls the way we live. The Holy Spirit now controls the way we live.

Please notice the wonderful relationship between what Christ did on the cross and what Christ is doing right now in the heavenly sanctuary, as an essential part of the New Covenant:

Your translation is invalid. Also, as wonderful as growth is it will not save me. Therefore, as I stated, the NC is based on what Christ did in my corporate humanity 2000 years ago.

New International Version--

Romans 8: 3,4:

3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Amplified Bible--

3 For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],

4 So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The written law was made weak by our sinful nature. But God did what the written law could not do. He made his Son to be like those who have a sinful nature. He sent him to be an offering for sin. In that way, he judged sin in his Son's human body. 4 Now we can do everything the law requires. Our sinful nature no longer controls the way we live. The Holy Spirit now controls the way we live.

Please notice the wonderful relationship between what Christ did on the cross and what Christ is doing right now in the heavenly sanctuary, as an essential part of the New Covenant:

.... as wonderful as growth is it will not save me. Therefore, as I stated, the NC is based on what Christ did in my corporate humanity 2000 years ago.

That's true, "growth," [i.e., sanctification] is not what saves us. We are saved by God's unmerited favor, apart from works, to be received by faith. We grow as we remain in a faith-based, loving relationship with Christ. The Gospels portray it as the process that will happen if the branches remain attached to the vine.

In the Pre-Advent Judgment, the investigation of our lives reveals who are staying attached to Christ, the vine. The fruit will be produced if the branches are attached to the vine.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

.... as wonderful as growth is it will not save me. Therefore, as I stated, the NC is based on what Christ did in my corporate humanity 2000 years ago.[/quote']

That's true, "growth," [i.e., sanctification] is not what saves us. We are saved by God's unmerited favor, apart from works, to be received by faith. We grow as we remain in a faith-based, loving relationship with Christ. The Gospels portray it as the process that will happen if the branches remain attached to the vine.

In the Pre-Advent Judgment, the investigation of our lives reveals who are staying attached to Christ, the vine. The fruit will be produced if the branches are attached to the vine.

It also reveal that although there's fruit, you are still a sinner. Hence, like I said, it's all about what Christ did 2000 years ago ultimately.

[Robert]

John317:

New International Version--

Romans 8: 3,4:

3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man [meaning Jesus remained God, while assuming our humanity] to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man [Jesus defeated "the love of self" in our humanity], 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law [love] might [if we fully surrendered and have the faith of Jesus] be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

[phkrause]

Neil that's one of the best explanations of the old and new that I have ever heard. excellent post neil. And I personally like it simple. More than that I think its to the point.

pk

[John317]

That's true, "growth," [i.e., sanctification] is not what saves us. We are saved by God's unmerited favor, apart from works, to be received by faith. We grow as we remain in a faith-based, loving relationship with Christ. The Gospels portray it as the process that will happen if the branches remain attached to the vine.

In the Pre-Advent Judgment, the investigation of our lives reveals who are staying attached to Christ, the vine. The fruit will be produced if the branches are attached to the vine.

Quote:

ROBERT-- It also reveal that although there's fruit, you are still a sinner. Hence, like I said, it's all about what Christ did 2000 years ago ultimately.

The Pre-Advent Judgment does not deny that God's people are sinners and in need of Christ. What it does, though, is show that they are changed sinners-- that they are no longer in rebellion against God and that Satan's charges against God and the saints are false. It demonstrates that the faith of the saints of God is genuine and results in new creations. It shows proof that God does indeed write His law by His Spirit on people's hearts and minds.

[Woody]

If all that is true John ... why do they continue to sin?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Luke Adam Goss

1st Covenant is the people making a promise in the flesh, and the 2nd Covenant is made by God for us to keep not in the flesh but in the spirit.

I am going to put my oar into this....if it helps your step dad, great...if not, ignore it...

Tell him to open his bible to the Table of Contents.

The OT is the first covenant. It contains the rules for a relationship between God and man. It was ratified by the blood of animals.

The NT is the 2nd covenant. It also contains the rules for a relationship between God and man. It was ratified by the blood of Jesus.

In the OT, it explains what a covenant is, how it is to be administered, how the relationships were being dealt with by various people under various circumstances. It give some very minute details as to how things are to be done, to the point where a culture grew up around those minute details.

In the NT, the covenant deals with relationships and the removal of those cultural minute details. It keeps the major relationships laws [ie the 10 commandments] and explains them from both inside the culture and outside the culture.

That's the simplistic explanation of those covenants. Hope that helps.

Great Explanation Neil. I like it. Saying that the OT covenant was ratified by the blood of animals has me a little concerned because I think that the animal blood just points to the blood of Jesus which does the ratifying. Maybe just semantics. But then maybe not. What do you think? Does the animal blood do the ratifying? It is all so symbolic. Guess it may not matter. We know the end of the story.

[John317]

John317:

New International Version--

Romans 8: 3,4:

3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man [meaning Jesus remained God, while assuming our humanity] to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man [Jesus defeated "the love of self" in our humanity], 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law [love] might [if we fully surrendered and have the faith of Jesus] be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

1) Yes, I completely agree that Jesus remained God while assuming our humanity.

Do you agree that Jesus was and is both true God and true man?

Both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy say clearly that Jesus Christ was/is a man-- that "the Logos became [egeneto] flesh" (John 1: 14); that Christ "was a man of sorrows" (Is. 53: 3); "a man [Gk. aner] approved of God" (Acts 2: 22); "the man [Gk. anthropos] Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2: 5); "is coming in the flesh" (i.e., as a man) (2 John 7).

2) In what way did Jesus Christ condemn sin in the flesh? Didn't he condemn sin by showing in His own life that there is no excuse for sin?

Quote:

Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges. He was subjected to the fiercest temptations that human nature can know, yet he sinned not; for sin is the transgression of the law. By faith he laid hold upon divinity, even as humanity may lay hold upon infinite power through him. Altho tempted upon all points even as men are tempted, he sinned not. He did not surrender his allegiance to God, as did Adam.The Signs of the Times , January 16, 1896, paragraph 2; Article Title: Sin Condemned in the Flesh.-By Mrs. E. G. White-

3. The righteous requirements of the law are more specific than merely "love." Agape-love is the principle, but there is a good reason why God gives us specific ways that this love is expressed. Love for God is expressed through obedience to His law, and love for our fellow man is expressed through loving obedience to the last six of the Ten Commandments. No one, for instance, can honestly say they love their neighbor if they are stealing from, lying about, or hating their neighbor.

4) The phrase in Romans 8: 4-- "that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us"-- means that Christ came in order to make it possible for mankind by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit to render perfect obedience to God.

[John317]

Saying that the OT covenant was ratified by the blood of animals has me a little concerned because I think that the animal blood just points to the blood of Jesus which does the ratifying. Maybe just semantics. But then maybe not.

The Old, or First, Covenant was ratified by the blood of animals at Mt. Sinai in 1445 BCE. Ex. 24: 6-8; cf. Hebrews 9: 18-22.

The New, or Second, Covenant was ratified at the cross by the shedding of Jesus' blood. Luke 22: 20; 1 Cor. 11: 25.

The Old Covenant didn't have to wait until Christ's death before it was ratified. In fact, Jesus' death brought an end to the Old Covenant. It was replaced by the New Covenant. Hebrews 7: 18; 10: 9; 8: 7, 13; Eph 2: 14-16.

[Robert]

Do you agree that Jesus was and is both true God and true man?

No! Again, Jesus is God. God made a body for Christ's Deity to dwell in. That body is our (not His) corporate fallen life. By that I mean that we all share one life - the fallen life of Adam. We are simply the multiplication of Adam's life.

You see Jesus as the Son of God didn't come to save the fallen Jesus. He came to save fallen humanity (us) and He did this by uniting His Divinity to our corporate fallen life in the womb of Mary. Jesus rewrote our history as the last Adam.

You see the law demands not Christ's death, but humanity's death. In order to satisfy the law Christ assumed us and "in Him" we died the death the law demands (see Romans 7:4).

Again, this is easy if you compare it to our situation after conversion. When you accept Christ the Holy Spirit (who is sinless) comes and assumes your humanity. He dwells in you because God is Spirit.

Does the Spirit become defiled by your sin nature?

No, it isn't His.

Do you become Holy because God's Spirit is in you?

No, it's not your Holiness - its the Spirit's.

That doesn't mean that the Spirit can't defeat the flesh. That's another subject.

So Christ united His Spirit (again, God is Spirit) with our humanity that needed redeeming. He assumed it in order to redeem us.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you agree that Jesus was and is both true God and true man?

No! Again, Jesus is God.

I could guarantee you that Jack Sequeira would tell you that Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man. While on this earth, Jesus was not part man and all God. Nor was he part God and all man. That is a central doctrine of Christianity, at least among those who accept the Trinity, which I assume Jack Sequeira does.

When Christians say that Jesus is God, they are not denying that Jesus was and is a man. Neither are they denying that Jesus Christ took on, or assumed, our human nature.

"Jehovah's Witnesses" believe that when he walked this earth, Jesus gave up his divinity. They believe all he was was a human being and when he died, there was absolutely nothing of him that survived death. For them, Jesus was nothing but a man.

I am not saying that. I am saying that He was as much God as the Father is God. But He was also truly man.

Don't you believe that Jesus still has his human nature? It's a glorified nature, but yet He is still a member of the human family. He's not a spirit-being like the JWs teach.

Have you studied standard Systematic Theology texts to see how Jesus Christ is described in them, and why?

[True-believer]

Jesus Christ is 100% fully Human and 100% fully God.

Jesus is in human form right now in heaven.

The same way He went to heaven is the same way He will come back to earth from heaven.

Jesus Christ is still fully Human and God in heaven right now, intervening on our behalf.

Jesus is fully both to have a personal relationship with us.

[John317]

Amen and Amen, Luke. We have an elder brother in heaven standing up for us as our High Priest and soon coming King!!! He's one of us, incredible as that may seem. He knows what it's like to be down here on earth and going through struggles and sufferings. That gives me courage and I bet it give you courage too.