Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 Now, does forgiveness results from death, or from obedience? You would argue that it results from Christ's death. I would argue that it is from obedience after knowing of Christ's love who was willing to go through death to "cause us" to obey.... I think the way the Bible views it is that God gave Jesus as proof that He forgave us. I don't believe that Jesus' death earned God's forgiveness and somehow made God more forgiving and loving or merciful than He was before. But Christ's death made it possible for God to restore us to His favor and still uphold His law or His government. It's similar to a situation where criminals would simply be allowed to commit crimes and nothing is done-- no consequences. It would mean the law is a joke. That's not it exactly but it's similar. To take it a step further, it would be a little like the law-maker making it possible for a murderer to go free while the law-maker himself takes the punishment for the violated law. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 Quote: Dumb question: Could the Holy Spirit have died? Doesn't strike me as a dumb question, especially given John317's statement about the Father dying. However, I don't think that's a question to which any real answer is possible. It becomes a very important question because there are many people who have the idea that the Father views us differently than Jesus does. That Jesus is more loving. But Jesus said that by looking at Him we are seeing exactly what the Father is like. In fact, in a real sense, Jesus only did what the Father would have done if He was here. Jesus said that everything He did and said was a true reflection, and in obedience to instructions, of the Father. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted February 2, 2009 Author Posted February 2, 2009 But that's exactly my point. Is it the act of death of the lawmaker that frees the breaker from the morally wrong deed? Two wrongs do not make right... old maxim. The analogy kind of fails considering that the lawmaker is not dead anymore... and that a part of lawmaker can not die. Only a shell... a manifestation that dies. In which case the death becomes a symbol of something bigger... because lawmaker is still there enforcing the same laws. It is a gesture of forgiveness for the lawbreaker to accept IF he is willing to change. Thus the payment for sins is made, but because God himself makes an exception from the Law that He has written. I hope it makes sense. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 ... I think that it's important to remember that Christ IS the Creator, and likewise He is the judge. Who are we accountable to? I really think people misunderstand Trinity as three separate persons (many times ... human formed beings) of God, instead of seeing it as functions that Godhead performs and the ways that They reveal Themselves to us. God is omniopresent... means All three of them... not simply the Father. Jesus is not omnipresent, though. He is limited in space to a human body. He's forever a member of the human race, and humans cannot be everywhere at once. One proof of this is that He told His disciples that it was best for them that He return to heaven and send the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit can be with each person; whereas Jesus can only be in one location at a time. Jesus can only be with us through His personal representative, the Holy Spirit. A very strong proof is 2 John 7. In the original, it says that Jesus is still in the flesh, still human. The Greek word is a present participle, indicating that Jesus is continuing to be in the flesh. When Jesus returns, He returns not as a invisible spirit-being but as the God/Man, the Son of Man, i.e., a son of Adam. 1 Tim. 2: 5 also says Jesus is a man at the present time. Remember also that when Jesus returned to heaven, He was a man and had a human body. The angels told the disciples that "this same Jesus" (who ascended physically and visibly) would return the say way they had seen Him go. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted February 2, 2009 Author Posted February 2, 2009 This is where I completely disagree. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8) He did not cease to be omnipresent once in human form. He simply did not use His powers for His advantage then. Not so now. The human appearance was an addition to the Spirit, not the other way. It is a manifestation of His Spirit being. "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" -Matthew 18:20 "And lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" -Matthew 28:20 Remember, that the flesh is a manifestation of God, who is the Spirit... not the other way around. That's where people get confused thinking that Christ was in human form from the beginning. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 Dumb question: Could the Holy Spirit have died? No, not dumb. All three members of the Godhead love us equally. Each member has a different role and function in the plan of redemption. The Father represents the authority of the Godhead. Jesus Christ represents the Godhead to the creatures and the creatures to the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is the Godhead's personal presence or power throughout the universe. This will not always be. According to 1 Cor. 15: 28, there will eventually be a time when "God will be all in all," meaning that we won't view the Godhead as having separate roles and functions; but God will be all in all just as now the Son is all in all. Col. 3: 11; Zech. 14: 9. I believe that each member of the Godhead-- since each is totally equal to the other and all-powerful-- could have chosen one of the other two roles or functions. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" -Matthew 18:20 "And lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" -Matthew 28:20 The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is with us through His personal representative, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, whom Jesus sent. John 14: 16, 17, 25, 26. Jesus said, "It is expedient [to your advantage] that I go away". John 16: 7. Why? "For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you." Jesus was raised with a glorified human body, the same kind of body that the saints will be raised with at the resurrection. Did you know that Ellen White writes that Jesus is forever a member of the human family? The Bible fully supports that view. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 This is where I completely disagree. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8) That is exactly right. Jesus will be a man forever-- the God-Man. He is the same as He was when He ascended to heaven and the disciples saw His going up. He will return the same way. By the way, see how Jesus appears in Rev. 1: 13-17 and Rev. 19-16. Also Daniel 7: 13. In those verses, Jesus appears as a human. How do you understand Heb. 13: 8? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted February 2, 2009 Author Posted February 2, 2009 John, God does not change His attributes. He may choose not to use them, but He can't go from omnipresent and eternal being to become limited in a box being... because by definition... that's not the God of the Bible. That goes for Christ likewise. I don't look at trinity as three separate people. I look at it as a different manifestations of the same thing. Just like water can be a gas, water can be ice, and water can be water... but all three are still made of the same thing... H20... in spite of being three distinct substances. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 I don't look at trinity as three separate people. I look at it as a different manifestations of the same thing. Just like water can be a gas, water can be ice, and water can be water... but all three are still made of the same thing... H20. When Christ cried out, "'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'" (Mark 15:34) He was suffering from the estrangement from His Father that sin had caused, wasn't he? When Jesus was in the garden and praying, "Not my will but your will be done," who do you believe Jesus Christ praying to? Here's the official statements of SDA beliefs on the Trinity: Quote: 2. Trinity:There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.) Our church, as you probably know, has not always believed in the Trinity. Both James White and Joseph Bates, the founders of the church, rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted February 2, 2009 Author Posted February 2, 2009 I did not say that. All I'm saying that substance of God is the same - SPIRIT, but the manifestations may vary... i.e. burning bush, or Jesus in His bodily form, or dove descending on Jesus. It is clear that there are three persons in a Godhead, but I would not say that they are totally separated and independent as three individuals in a human sense. God simply relays His nature to us. I don't completely understand it, but I don't want to misrepresent it either. Bible clearly teaches that God is a Spirit, and should be worshiped as such (I don't believe it talks only about the Father here). In fact, this is why Muslims reject Christian God, because it is portrayed as three deities being worshiped... while it is one God that we worship. Think of it as split personalities in one head. There's not a better way I can describe it ( I know it's a bad example)... and I know it carries a negative connotation but that's the best way I can think of it. Three personalities in one Godhead... that are part of the same body but with , but manifest themselves in different ways to us... thus possess different attributes. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 It is clear that there are three persons in a Godhead, but I would not say that they are totally separated and independent in a three individuals in a human sense. OK, I understand. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 Check out this paragraph about Satan's reaction to the resurrection of Christ-- Quote: Satan was bitterly incensed that his angels had fled from the presence of the heavenly angels, and that Christ had conquered death, and shown by this act what his future power was to be. All the triumph that the tempter had experienced in witnessing his own power over men, which had urged them on to insult and murder the Son of God, vanished before this exhibition of the Divine power of Christ. He had dared to hope that Jesus would not take up his life again; but his courage failed him when the Saviour came forth, having paid the full ransom of man, thus enabling him to overcome Satan in his own behalf in the name of Christ, the Conqueror. The archenemy now knew that he must eventually die, and that his kingdom would have an end. The Present Truth, February 18, 1886, paragraph 9 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2009 Moderators Posted February 2, 2009 Dumb question: Could the Holy Spirit have died? God cannot die. Christ was/is both fully God and fully man. His divine nature-- the deity-- did not die. Only His humanity died. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs Dumb question: Could the Holy Spirit have died? God cannot die. Christ was/is both fully God and fully man. His divine nature-- the deity-- did not die. Only His humanity died. You mean our humanity? Again, Christ is God. He took upon His Deity (who He is) our fallen humanity. I wish you would accept Paul over EGW. Paul tells me that I died in the body of Christ. The law demands the death of the sinner. Christ isn't the sinner. This vicarious atonement is a false gospel! Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 2, 2009 Members Posted February 2, 2009 okay...I can see what you're saying.. Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators John317 Posted February 3, 2009 Moderators Posted February 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 God cannot die. Christ was/is both fully God and fully man. His divine nature-- the deity-- did not die. Only His humanity died. You mean our humanity? Again' date=' Christ is God. He took upon His Deity (who He is) our fallen humanity. I wish you would accept Paul over EGW. Paul tells me that I died in the body of Christ. The law demands the death of the sinner. Christ isn't the sinner. This vicarious atonement is a false gospel![/quote'] OK, I understand what you are saying, Rob. But look at this-- If you had been standing there watching the crucifixion and then the burial, you wouldn't have said, "Our body is dead" or "Our humanity is nailed to the cross, but Jesus is doing fine." It was Jesus Christ who was nailed to that cross and He died. Yes, He assumed our humanity, but in taking it, it was His hand that got a nail pounded through it, and you better believe He knew it was His hand at that point. No doubt. That had to hurt Him BAD. However, I congratulate you, because Ellen White's terminology seems to support what you say. Nevertheless, it was the body of Christ that lay in that tomb on Sabbath-- as Luke 23: 55 says, the women saw how "His body was laid." Quote: He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Humanity died: divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. . . . The Faith I Live By (1958), page 51, paragraph 3 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 3, 2009 Moderators Posted February 3, 2009 God does not change His attributes. Could Christ be everywhere at once when he was lying as a baby in the manger? When Jesus of Nazareth was fastened to that cross with Roman nails driven through His hands, could He leave the cross and go somewhere else? If not, then He changed his attributes, didn't He? Jesus voluntarily gave up some of his divine prerogatives and powers-- and all because of his love for us. Did Jesus give them up just temporarily? He gave them up permanently and forever. What a sacrifice! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 In fact, this is why Muslims reject Christian God, because it is portrayed as three deities being worshiped... while it is one God that we worship. Think of it as split personalities in one head. There's not a better way I can describe it ( I know it's a bad example)... and I know it carries a negative connotation but that's the best way I can think of it. Three personalities in one Godhead... that are part of the same body but with , but manifest themselves in different ways to us... thus possess different attributes. The very fact that, once in the OT and once in the NT it is clearly stated that God is One, and never does it state that God is either two, three, or any other multiple, it shows an extreme lack of wisdom to advance a number God himself has not expanded on to reveal Himself. Not to mention it gives a very plausible argument to any non-Christian that we use non-biblical theology while professing sola-scriptura as our reason to be accepted as the spokesman for the Word of God. Better to stick with the basics. "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2 NASB Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 If you had been standing there watching the crucifixion and then the burial, you wouldn't have said, "Our body is dead" or "Our humanity is nailed to the cross, but Jesus is doing fine." Quote
Robert Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 When Jesus of Nazareth was fastened to that cross with Roman nails driven through His hands, could He leave the cross and go somewhere else? Yes....He could have grabbed on to His divinity, independent of the Father, and come down from the cross and saved Himself. But this act would have been one of self-love (iniquity) and Jesus would have become partners with Lucifer. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 3, 2009 Moderators Posted February 3, 2009 Bible clearly teaches that God is a Spirit, and should be worshiped as such (I don't believe it talks only about the Father here). John 4: 24 says, "God is Spirit." Yes, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. Quote: In fact, this is why Muslims reject Christian God, because it is portrayed as three deities being worshiped... while it is one God that we worship. We worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Together they are one God. The Bible refers to the Father as God; the Son as God and the Holy Spirit as God. It's a very confusing subject for so many people, but it doesn't need to be. Muslims reject the Christian God because of the false teachings contained in the Qur'an. It says God never had a son and that anyone who says God had a son is a liar. It also says Jesus never died but only appeared to die. The best translation I have of the Qur'an is called, The Holy Qur'an with English Translation and Commentary by Maulana Muhammad Ali. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 3, 2009 Moderators Posted February 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 When Jesus of Nazareth was fastened to that cross with Roman nails driven through His hands, could He leave the cross and go somewhere else? Yes....He could have grabbed on to His divinity, independent of the Father, and come down from the cross and saved Himself. But this act would have been one of self-love (iniquity) and Jesus would have become partners with Lucifer. I agree Christ could have come down from the cross. That's not the question. The question is could Christ be on the cross and be in several other places at the same time? Was Christ omnipresent when walking around Jerusalem with his disciples? Is He able to be everywhere at once now? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 John, I don't think it's the correct question. The question is, can a God who created universe (Jesus) be constrained in a human body and thus only limited to the human body? A good perspective of understanding this would be... if you control the sock puppet... is the sock puppet really you? Are you limited by the limitations of the sock puppet? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 3, 2009 Moderators Posted February 3, 2009 2 John 7 (Young's Literal Translation) 7 because many leading astray did enter into the world, who are not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh; this one is he who is leading astray, and the antichrist. This means "Jesus Christ continues coming in human form" (participle present middle). The Holy Bible In the Language of Today (William Beck) reads "Jesus Christ as one who comes in the flesh." It means that Jesus Christ is in the sphere of the flesh today. He hasn't changed since the last time human beings saw him. Compare 1 Tim. 2: 5-- "the man (Gk. male) Christ Jesus" is our High Priest today. This is supported below by Ellen White: Quote: By His life and His death, Christ has achieved even more than recovery from the ruin wrought through sin. It was Satan's purpose to bring about an eternal separation between God and man; but in Christ we become more closely united to God than if we had never fallen. In taking our nature, the Saviour has bound Himself to humanity by a tie that is never to be broken. Through the eternal ages He is linked with us. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race. To assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, God gave His only-begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature. This is the pledge that God will fulfill His word. "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder." God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven. It is the "Son of man" who shares the throne of the universe. It is the "Son of man" whose name shall be called, "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isa. 9:6. The I Am is the Daysman between God and humanity, laying His hand upon both. He who is "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners," is not ashamed to call us brethren. Heb. 7:26; 2:11. In Christ the family of earth and the family of heaven are bound together. Christ glorified is our brother. Heaven is enshrined in humanity, and humanity is enfolded in the bosom of Infinite Love. DA 25 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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