Licentiousness- caused in utero?

[cardw]

The whole first part of your post is irrelevant to the facts. We can have a discussion on hypothetical methods of determining authority all we want. That's simply smoke and mirrors and avoids the facts. The facts are what tell us if Ellen White is true or not. I agree that truth doesn't need authority. Truth, at least for me, is based on observable results or verification.

What I do verify is that Ellen White stated the following about secret sin or masterbation...

Quote:

Many sink into an early grave, while others have sufficient force of constitution to pass this ordeal. If the practice is continued from the ages of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system, and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement, and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution, and death is the result.

Death by masterbation? Come now, there is absolutely no evidence of this at all. In fact quite the opposite. When we look at the evidence its clear that Ellen White wasn't being inspired by God, but by the so called "experts" of her day. If there was any harm to masterbation it was the results of the shame heaped on those who practiced masterbation which is just about everybody. Now I can see how that might kill someone.

Quote:

By the way, I get zero hits on the EGW CD-ROM for each of the words ‘masturbation,’ ‘castration,’ ‘circumcis* fem*’ and ‘circumcis* girl’ (i.e. except for words used by her editors.) So why does it seem to me that you are implying that Ellen White ever gave her support to female circumcision? Isn’t it true that Ellen White’s approach to this matter is distinctly different from a surgical approach?

Its because she calls it secret sin, just as Kellogg does. And Ellen White endorsed Harvey Kellogg. This is how she endorsed circumcision and many of the other things Kellogg wrote in his book. Remember Dr. Kellogg was raised in Ellen White's home like a son. And this book was published under the endorsement of Ellen White.

[Bravus]

Just to be really clear here. We're talking about surgically removing the clitoris of a girl of 10 because she was going through a stage that many children go through of playing with herself for pleasure. This girl would be robbed of sexual pleasure throughout her life and her later marriage on this basis of a set of beliefs for which there is zero medical evidence and also, lest we forget, zero Biblical evidence.

It's frankly horrifying.

[TreeOfLife]

This girl would be robbed... on this basis of a set of beliefs for which there is zero medical evidence and also, lest we forget, zero Biblical evidence.

Dear Bravus,

What you don't look for you won't find!

Here's a sprinkling of the medical evidence that apparently you haven't seen as yet:

Re Medical Evidence for some of the many consequences of "self-abuse:"

“Can Masturbation Cause Zinc Deficiency?

“The content of zinc in good human semen is 20 mgm percent or 20 mgm per 100 ml… We hate to say it but in a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity. I do recall that puritanical official from YMCA who talked to the segregated high school boys and stated that the grey stuff from the penis was equal to the loss of the same amount of grey matter from the brain each time we masturbated.” (Pfeiffer, Carl. C., Ph.D., M.D., Zinc and Other Micro-Nutrients. (1978), p. 45-6.)

“Acne

“A letter to the editor of the Australian Medical Journal in 1976 was entitled Is Acne Vulgaris Zinc Deficiency? The final word arrived from Sweden via the AMA, Archives for Dermatology (January 1977), in which Dr. Gerd Michaelsson of Uppsala University compared vitamin A alone, zinc alone, both zinc and vitamin A and a dummy capsule in four groups of acne patients. The acne decreased only in the two zinc treated groups where the acne score went from 85 down to 15 pimples per group; the vitamin A (in butter-eating Swedes) gave no added improvement. This finding confirms what many family physicians have found with simple zinc supplementation of the diet. During the stressful years of puberty, zinc is needed for ovarian function, growth, the prostate, seminal vesicles, testes and in sperm production… Small wonder, then, that simple masturbation may sometimes aggravate zinc deficiency. ” (ibid. p. 50.)

“Hypogonadism

“As early as 1969, Drs. E. J. Underwood and M. Somers of Australia found that young rams who were severely zinc-deficient would not mount females, nor could they collect active sperm from the animals. The animals had no libido but then they also had eczema of the face and scrotum, and lost their horns and wool as a result of the severe zinc deficiency…” (ibid. p. 44.)

“Dwarfism, Hypogonads and Failure of Sexual Maturity

“In 1961, Prasad, Prasad and Halstead published a detailed clinical study of eleven Iranian male dwarfs who, in addition to iron deficiency, had, by modern tests, zinc deficiency. The symptoms were dwarfism at the age of twenty years, infantile sex organs and lack of mental acuity. The iron deficiency was corrected without improvement. Later, in a controlled study on seventeen male dwarfs, the control group of eight on a normal diet required 224 days for normal sexual activity, while the nine fed the normal diet plus 100 mg of zinc sulfate each day developed normal sexual function in 59 days – 4 times as fast. These twenty-year-old dwarfs grew in height because the growing ends of the long bones had not closed. The hospital diet produced 4.2 cm of increased height, while the same diet plus zinc produced 10.5 cm – more than twice as much.” (ibid. p. 6-7.)

“Case History: Fran and the Fried Oysters

“Fran, a baby adopted at the age of two weeks in August 1955. Although Fran was overactive as a baby, her parents saw no evidence of difficulty until she started school, where she repeated the first grade because of poor learning.

“Her behavior and learning problems seemed to be emotional in nature, but psychological counseling did not help. In the sixth grade she was diagnosed by a psychiatrist as having minimal brain dysfunction and later by a clinic as having learning disabilities involving poor visual perception and auditory memory.

“At age thirteen her pediatrician, believing her erratic and irritable behavior might be caused by low blood sugar, finally hospitalized her for three weeks and placed her on a hign-protein, sugar-free diet plus vitamins. After she had been in the hospital a few days her behavior – which had been extremely antagonistic and uncooperative much of the time – dramatically and suddenly changed. The unprovoked temper tantrums involving ranting and raving, the cruel swear words – all suddenly stopped.

“The parents tried to keep her on a sugar-free diet at home. However, for a less-than-cooperative teen-ager this was almost impossible, especially since she seemed to have a craving for candy. They learned, after repeated experiences, that candy or candy wrappers could usually be found in her room after one of her destructive tantrums. However, she still was in much better condition than before they knew about the sugar. She still was immature, had very poor logic, made mostly C’s and D’s in school. But the tantrums had decreased in frequency and in degree.

“Her parents had noticed several years before that after Fran had eaten fried oysters she was always unusually alert and cooperative – and never had any tantrums. So they all ate fried oysters an awful lot. They kept wondering what could be in the oysters that could have this effect on her. The parents’ massive reading program included the book Orthomolecular Psychiatry, in one chapter of which Pfeiffer describes a high-histamine-level patient in a way that seemed to fit Fran and recommended a zinc dietary supplement. They also found, in a book on nutrition by Roger Williams, that oysters contained 143 mg percent of zinc and that the next best source of zinc was roast beef, with only 6.4 mg percent zinc. This had to be the answer!

“Although the parents had tried megavitamin therapy without any significant improvement, they had again started Fran in August 1973 on a closely supervised megavitamin dosage of mostly vitamin C, niacin amide (2 to 3 gm daily) and B-6. After four months of this therapy, they could not ascertain any significant improvement. Then, on 27 December 1973, they gave her the first dose of zinc. The very next day she was positively improved. Within two weeks after she had started the zinc she had (1) obtained her driver’s license (for two years she had had a learner’s permit but had not wanted to try for the license); (2) obtained a full-time job from midnight to 8 A.M. (the first job she had ever had); and (3) enrolled in a college for a three-hour-per-day course (she had been out of high school for several weeks and had not previously expressed any desire to attend college). Although after two more weeks she had to drop the college – no time for sleep – they just couldn’t believe the change that had taken place in their Fran.

“They continued the megavitamins for two months and gave her one Vicon Plus (Meyer Lab multivitamin with 80 mg zinc and 4 mg manganese) in the morning and one chelated zinc (Rich-life, Inc., 200 mg zinc) in the evening. Then, they stopped the megavitamins completely (except what was in the Vicon Plus) but continued the zinc. There was no discernible change – the very great improvement remained. They continued the zinc for a total of 3 ½ months (from 27 December), then stopped everything to see what would happen. For two days there was little change, but on the third day Fran had a “blowup” – a real temper tantrum. The next day, another. This one included the ranting alone in her room. It was the first time such ranting had taken place since she had begun receiving the zinc. One week after they stopped the zinc her behavior had deteriorated so much that they felt they had to resume it. They gave her the zinc capsule at 8:30 A.M.; by 6:00 that night she was, once again, a changed person – and continues to be, as the zinc is continued.

“Fran still has problems. She is immature, still has poor logic (although this seems to be improving) and few friends. Her parents have a strong feeling that she has lost the sugar compulsion, although they are not yet certain. But after eighteen years of watching Fran try to cope with her frustrations and failures, the parents thank God she is not in prison. No one can imagine how much the parents are enjoying the new Fran. They say, “She has a great sense of humor, is considerate and fun to be around. There is no doubt whatsoever in our minds that zinc has saved her.” (ibid. p. 26-29.)

Comment re the above case history:

Though this case history re Fran is not being associated with “the secret sin,” it nevertheless shows consequences related to low zinc levels, which in turn may well occur in girls as well as boys in consequence of “self-abuse:”

“With marathon necking and petting, the loss of zinc again might equal 1 mgm since normal prostate fluid has 0.5 mgm per ml or 50 mgm percent, according to Drs. William R. Fair and W. Heston of the Washington School of Medicine in St. Louis. With these figures in mind, the zinc loss would be greatest in any sex activity with extended foreplay. We hate to say it but in a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity. I do recall that puritanical official from YMCA who talked to the segregated high school boys and stated that the grey stuff from the penis was equal to the loss of the same amount of grey matter from the brain each time we masturbated.” (ibid. p. 45.)

[cardw]

Quote:

“With marathon necking and petting, the loss of zinc again might equal 1 mgm since normal prostate fluid has 0.5 mgm per ml or 50 mgm percent, according to Drs. William R. Fair and W. Heston of the Washington School of Medicine in St. Louis. With these figures in mind, the zinc loss would be greatest in any sex activity with extended foreplay. We hate to say it but in a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity. I do recall that puritanical official from YMCA who talked to the segregated high school boys and stated that the grey stuff from the penis was equal to the loss of the same amount of grey matter from the brain each time we masturbated.”

You need to read the above carefully. It stated that the adolescent had to be zinc deficient already and the masturbation would have to be excessive. This is hardly evidence for all the claims made by Ellen White and Dr. Kellogg generalized to everyone who practiced "secret sin."

Here are the stats for the daily requirement of zinc

zinc fact sheet

The daily requirement of zinc is 11 mg. Excessive masturbation will deplete 1 mg. That is remedied by simply eating one ounce of Cashews.

This is hardly the "dangerous" life threatening practice Ellen White makes it out to be.

You know who are at the greatest risk for zinc deficiency?

Vegetarians.

Quote:

Zinc: While zinc is found in animal products such as meats, liver, seafood and eggs, it is also present in a variety of plant foods such as grains, legumes and nuts. The only problem is, zinc from plant sources it is not absorbed as well by the body.

So, you are at a greater risk of zinc deficiency if you follow Ellen White's council to be vegetarian than if you masturbate.

Because you defend this authority of Ellen White, that teaches abusive and excessive shame based beliefs, without holding her to the same standards of reason as we hold any source of information, you are promoting abuse. You are distorting the scientific information through exaggeration and misrepresentation of the facts.

[TreeOfLife]

You know who are at the greatest risk for zinc deficiency?

Vegetarians.

Quote:

Zinc: While zinc is found in animal products such as meats, liver, seafood and eggs, it is also present in a variety of plant foods such as grains, legumes and nuts. The only problem is, zinc from plant sources it is not absorbed as well by the body.

So, you are at a greater risk of zinc deficiency if you follow Ellen White's council to be vegetarian than if you masturbate.

Dear Richard,

I agree with you that vegetarians may easily eat a deficient diet. That is, if all they do is remove some or all of the animal products from a typical refined foods dominated diet and if their vegetarian diet does not include a generous amount of nuts, seeds, whole grains, fruit and vegetables. (I believe the importance of legumes may be much over emphasized, especially as commonly practiced using a diet consisting to a large degree of highly refined soy products.)

Perhaps the following quote may serve as food for thought re your above quoted words and your apparent preference for a non-vegetarian diet?

I am thinking in particular of the added need for zinc among consumers of animal products, i.e. the added need for zinc when consuming a diet consisting to a high degree of animal fats needing to be broken down:

“On the question of the double-edged destruction of the mineral balance of foods brought about by refining, Dr. Schroeder cited frightening figures:

“ “The milling of wheat into refined white flour removes 40 percent of the chromium, 86 percent of the manganese, 76 percent of the iron, 89 percent of the cobalt, 68 percent of the copper, 78 percent of the zinc[emphasis added throughout], and 48 percent of the molybdenum, all trace elements essential for life or health. The residue of millfeeds, which is rich in trace elements, is fed to domestic animals.”

“But the cadmium is not removed. Of particular importance, it increases in proportion to the zinc with which it has many structural similarities. Zinc, Dr. Schroeder explains, is vital in the breakdown of fats in the system and therefore crucial to the cardiovascular health. Cadmium’s toxic effect is believed to stem from its being stored for use in the body in place of zinc when the proportion between the two metals is unfavorably out of balance.

“Such a disturbed balance is exactly what is brought about by the refining process. In the whole grain, the trace metal cadmium is distributed throughout the endosperm and germ; zinc, however, is concentrated in the germ and bran. And it is the germ and bran that the refining process does away with. In whole wheat, Dr. Schroeder says, cadmium is present in proportion to zinc in a ratio of 1 to 120. Refined white flour concentrates the toxic metal to the point where there is 1 part cadmium for every 20 parts of zinc – a 600 percent increase!

“Here in Dr. Schroeder’s testimony we find a most striking example of the wisdom of relying on natural foods and natural food supplements.”

(Rodale, J. I., and Staff, The Complete Book of Minerals for Health (1972), pp. 410-411.)

[cardw]

Quote:

“Here in Dr. Schroeder’s testimony we find a most striking example of the wisdom of relying on natural foods and natural food supplements.”

Irrelevant...

I'm not debating the merits of a vegetarian diet.

The point is that if zinc is such a harmful issue in masturbation then its even a worse factor in vegetarianism.

Your siting of zinc deficiency as a justification for Ellen White's position on masturbation is simply untenable.

[Bravus]

Not to mention that the horrifying case we were discussing was that of a female child. Who would not be losing zinc through ejaculation.

I stand by 'zero medical evidence' except in extreme circumstances. May as well say eating peanuts constitutes a deadly vice and sin because some people are allergic.

[TreeOfLife]

EGW on Licentiousness in Utero…

I read this today:

Quote:

Licentiousness, which means impure thoughts and indulgence in sensual things, may be transmitted to the offspring as a strong tendency because of the indulgence on the part of the parents especially during the time of pregnancy. (See Matthew 1:24,25) This is one of the causes of the appalling immorality and crimes against women we see today.

Now, Matthew 1:24, 25 says this:

"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him to do. He took Mary to be his wife. 25- He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus." GWT

Thoughts?

[Woody]

What ever we do ... the power must come from God. If we fail it is because God is not giving us the power to overcome. Trying in our own power is useless and harmful. The power must come from God.

[TreeOfLife]

Power from God Alone…

What ever we do ... the power must come from God. If we fail it is because God is not giving us the power to overcome. Trying in our own power is useless and harmful. The power must come from God.

Dear Redwood,

I absolutely agree with you. My point exactly!

So why do people apply for a marriage license from the State before their wedding? And why do people seek a license of the State in order to get more power into their family destructive tendencies, that is, when seeking a divorce decree?

Isn’t it true also that “trying in our own power,” as you say, includes also that which is done by most any association of men, that is, any association of men where the Word of God is not the corner stone? And isn’t every State such an association of men? Are not all States voted into existence by men just the same as that which is recorded for us in 1 Samuel 8?

Isn’t all that licentiousness? Remember…

Shalom,

Tree of Life ©