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[Guest truthseeker007]

When Greece fell it didived into four kingdoms. In Daniel 8 we read that a little horn would come out of one of these kingdoms or winds, which one is it?

I have no problem believing that the little horn of Daniel 7 is Rome, however Daniel 8 seems better to apply to Antochius Ephiphanus. Somebody help me out here, i am stuck now.

I was thinking, maybe Daniel 7 refers to Rome and Daniel 8 refers to Antochius as an antitype of the antichrist of the future? Or maybe Antochius was used by satan to confuse the truth about prophecy.

There must be some clear answer, Horns don t grow out of winds, furthermore nowhere in the bible a horn equals a kingdom, it equals a king! that s quite a difference.

[Gail]

Ron Lambert just wrote a book on this... where is he?

[John317]

The little horn of Daniel 8: 9 came out of one of the four winds of heaven. That means one of four points of the compass. Notice it grows "exceedingly great" in three directions, south, east and towards Jerusalem. That leaves only the north and west as the directions that the little horn must have come out of. What power came out of the northwest (from the perspective of Israel)? Rome did.

There are many reason that the little horn cannot possibly refer to Antiochus Epiphanes. One of those is that the little horn is described as becoming "exceedingly great."

Antiochus Epiphanes was never greater than the third empire, Greece. Remember that the ram representing Medo-Persia was "great" (8: 4). Next the male goat representing Greece was "very great" (8: 8).

There is no way that anyone can reasonably say that Antiochus Epiphanes was "exceedingly great" in comparison with the two previous powers.

A Roman ambassador (not even an army) ordered Antiochus E. out of Egypt, and Antiochus did not even argue with him.

He was a runt in comparison with the other previous kingdoms, and particularly in comparison with Rome, and that is just one reason why he cannot be the fulfillment of the little horn.

Rome fulfills all the specifications of the prophecy, and Antiochus Epiphanes fulfills none when you look at the evidence carefully.

Hope this helps.

[phkrause]

Hi truthseeker, good to see you. There are a number of good books out are. Daniel and Revelations, not sure by who. I'm reading a book by William H. Shea, called "Daniel". Study this in are SS class. And if you go to the "all about books" threads, there is a new book there by a Ron Lambert, it looks good. I will probably purchase this after I'm done with some other books I'm reading right now. The "Daniel" book I'm reading will answer your questions. Of course each book has a little different interpretation, but all are pretty much the same.

pk

[John317]

... furthermore nowhere in the bible a horn equals a kingdom, it equals a king! that s quite a difference.

They clearly do in Daniel 8: 22, 23. "Kingdoms" is translated from the Hebrew word, malkuth, (Strongs #4438), and means an empire, a dominion, a kingdom, a realm.

In Daniel 8: 21, the word "king," a reference to Alexander the Great, is translated from the word melekh(Strongs #4428) , the word for "king" or "ruler" or "prince."

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks John, i know that Rome absorped the four sibling areas of Greece. I don t know from which direction Rome came, maybe you know that. But how do i know whether the little horn is associated with winds rather than with the other horns. Daniel 8 seems to imply pretty clearly that the little horn came out of one of the four horns in the end of their supremacy. If i am correct Rome already existed at the time of the four horns so it can t be Rome!

This is in contradiction with Daniel 7 in which the little horn comes AFTER Rome!

I just red something about different translations, according to some translations the little horn in Daniel 8 comes AFTER the four horns!

Please help me out here, you are the knowledge-wiseguy around here John, maybe you can help me out!

[John317]

Thanks John, i know that Rome absorped the four sibling areas of Greece. I don t know from which direction Rome came, maybe you know that.

Ok, it says that this power spread toward the south and toward the east and toward the land of Israel. This means that it could not have come out the east because it is growing eastward. It had to come out of the northwest, that is, in the direction with respect to Israel. If you check out a map, you will see that Rome is west of Israel, the very direction that the Bible says this little horn comes out of. By contrast, Antiochus Epiphanes came out of the Seleucid Empire, which was located in the east, an area which had been the Persian Empire.

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But how do i know whether the little horn is associated with winds rather than with the other horns. Daniel 8 seems to imply pretty clearly that the little horn came out of one of the four horns in the end of their supremacy. If i am correct Rome already existed at the time of the four horns so it can t be Rome!

Yes, Rome existed at the time of Alexander, but not as an empire. It was merely a city. Rome existed as a city for over 1,000 before it became an empire in the third century BC. But the point is that Rome followed Greece as a world empire. There is no question about this. It was Rome which conquered what had once been the Greek empire. Antiochus Epiphanes never became a world empire. He remained a third-rate king.

In the phrase, "out of one of them," the word for "them," hem, is masculine. This indicates that, grammatically, the antecedent is "winds," and not "horns," since "winds" may be either masculine or feminine, but "horns," only feminine.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks john for you comments, i am quite convinced that Daniel deals with Rome rather than Antochius. However i think that God should have dealt with this message more explicitly.

But now i have troubles with the date of 1844. I think it is a ridiculous theory that Jesus switched apartments in 1844. According to some translations Jesus went straight to the holy of holiest. So we can t figure out what the truth is. Hebrews 9 clearly explains that only the high priest entered the holy of holiest and only with blood. So if Jesus from 0 to 1844 served in the holy, it is not antitypical to the earthly sanctuary is it?, I do believe that there is an investigative Judgement, but not for us, but for our fellow universe citizens. They will be able to see our ways, so that if Jesus comes back we can check out HIS judgement (for the hour of HIS judgement has come!).

I think that 1844 stands for the date in which God s earthly sanctuary ( which is God s church) would be restored, after all the bible says that the body of Christ is a temple and Jesus is a cornerstone of his body, his church!. The angel in Daniel also tells us that the 2300 days are TRUTH!, so i believe that the 2300 years culminating in 1844 was the period in which the truth would be trodden under foot!

If we assume that Jesus switched appartments in 1844 then what was Jesus doing in the first apartment? I think this doctrine of 1844 is ridiculous, but EGW endorsed it because of a vision. So if 1844 falls, the whole church falls! what a dilemma,

Maybe John You can tell me what Jesus did in the first chamber?

[Guest truthseeker007]

Come on nobody out here who knows the answer?? i can t be baptised before i ve figured this thing out!

[John317]

OK, I just saw your post and will answer it but my family is calling me to Sabbath dinner. I'll be back.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Ok thnks m8 looking forward 4 your answer, i ll be patient;)

[John317]

According to some translations Jesus went straight to the holy of holiest. So we can t figure out what the truth is....

Here is the literal translation of Hebrews 9: 12--

1) NASB

12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

2) New Revised Standard--

the sanctuary

3) English Standard Version--

the holy places

4) Young's Literal Translation--

the holy places

The bottom line is Hebrews 9: 12 is saying that Jesus went into the sanctuary in heaven. It isn't concerned with which part of the sanctuary Jesus entered. It emphasizes only that Jesus went directly into the Father's presence and was accepted by Him.

The NIV, NKJV, and others which have "most holy place" or "holy of holies" in Romans 9: 12 are wrong. Their translations say "Most Holy Place" because that is what they believe the writer of Hebrews intended to say.

Romans 9: 2 without question refers to the Most Holy Place. The Greek is Hagia Hagion.

Romans 9: 12, by contrast, uses the word ta hagia, which means "the holies," and is a word used in reference to the "the sanctuary." (Compare RSV above.)

[John317]

I think it is a ridiculous theory that Jesus switched apartments in 1844...

The last phase of Christ's work in getting rid of sin takes place near the end of world as we know it, shortly before Christ returns.

If you check out Daniel 7: 6-14, you will noticed that there a judgment scene in heaven that is presented to the reader. Daniel sees this judgment scene beginning to start in heaven about the same time that he sees the power of the "little horn" speaking "pompous words." Notice v. 9. It is describing God's throne. What does it say God's throne has? Wheels! Wheels are only needed on things that MOVE. So God's throne is portrayed as moving. (Compare Ezekiel 1: 16-21.)

Daniel 7: 10 shows a court about ready to begin. The books are opened and the court is seated, but the court is still waiting to begin. They are waiting for something or for someone. At the same time as the court is waiting, the prophet notices again that this "little horn" is still talking his pompous words. (Verses 11 and 12 give a picture of what will happen in the future, as a result of the court's proceedings.)

In verse 13, someone-- "One like the Son of Man"-- arrives on the scene and so the court can begin. Obviously Jesus has arrived. He "comes to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him (the Son of man) near" the Father.

I submit that this happened in 1844, at a time when the Papacy was speaking its "pompous words" against God and against the truth.

The movement-- the change from one part of the sanctuary to another-- represents the beginning of the end-time judgment which takes place just before the Second Coming of Christ. We are living in the time of this judgment.

I'll be back a little later to continue.

[John317]

If we assume that Jesus switched appartments in 1844 then what was Jesus doing in the first apartment? ....

It's necessary to consider and understand what was represented by the yearly round of the sanctuary services. What did the daily sacrifices and the work of the priests symbolize?

It symbolized Christ's death and the covering of the sins of the people. Remember that the priests were constantly taking the record of those sins into the sanctuary. Sins were transferred in type from the sinner to the sacrificial animal, just like our sins are transferred in reality from us to Jesus Christ. But then in the sanctuary service, they were then transferred from the animal to the priest and thence into the sanctuary.

At the end of the year there was a "cleansing of the sanctuary," which was the removal, or blotting out, of all the sins that the people had committed throughout the year. Their sins had been covered but they were still on the record. In other words, the sanctuary had been polluted by the sins of God's people and therefore it needed to be cleansed. It was a judgment.

So, to answer your question what was Jesus doing in the first apartment, Jesus has been pleading His blood on behalf of sinners, covering their sins, and giving them spiritual strength through the Holy Spirit to live godly lives.

This is what Jesus did from the time of His ascension until Oct. 1844.

As we turn to what happened in Oct. 1844 and the change that occurred in Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary, we will see there are some major differences between His work before 1844 and His work in heaven now. His High Priestly work in heaven at the present time brings to view "new duties" which we won't understand or be enabled to do if we don't follow Christ by faith in His mediation in the heavenly sanctuary. (See GC 425, 431, especially paragraphs 0 on both pages. Study chapters 24, 28.)

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I think this doctrine of 1844 is ridiculous, but EGW endorsed it because of a vision. So if 1844 falls, the whole church falls! what a dilemma....

The question then is, did Ellen White endorse a ridiculous doctrine, i.e., a lie? She claimed that God gave her visions regarding the significance of 1844. He either did or He didn't. If He didn't, then Ellen White either lied or was deceived.

If God didn't give visions about it and if it is a false doctrine, we need to know NOW. We need to study it individually and know what we believe and why.

I would maintain that if the 1844 doctrine is false and the Investigative Judgment is not of God, then the church deserves to fall. But is it false?

Study and understand especially the following 2 sentences from Ellen White's book, The Great Controversy:

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The subject of the sanctuary was the key which unlocked the mystery of the disappointment of 1844. It opened to view a complete system of truth, connected and harmonious, showing that God's hand had directed the great Advent movement, and revealing present duty as it brought to light the position and work of his people. As the disciples of Jesus, after the terrible night of their anguish and disappointment, were "glad when they saw the Lord," so did those now rejoice who had looked in faith for his second coming. They had expected him to appear in glory to give reward to his servants. As their hopes were disappointed, they had lost sight of Jesus, and with Mary at the sepulcher they cried, "They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him." Now in the holy of holies they again beheld him, their compassionate high priest, soon to appear as their king and deliverer. Light from the sanctuary illumed the past, the present, and the future. They knew that God had led them by his unerring providence. Though like the first disciples they themselves had failed to understand the message which they bore, yet it had been in every respect correct. In proclaiming it they had fulfilled the purpose of God, and their labor had not been in vain in the Lord. "Begotten again unto a lively hope," they rejoiced "with joy unspeakable and full of glory." The Great Controversy (1888), page 423, paragraph 1

[Guest truthseeker007]

Correct me if i am wrong but are you saying that in the first apartment our sins are recorded? So now we are living in 2009 we can t confess our sins anymore? How then does Christ deal with those that seek forgiveness now?

Wasn t Christ life sufficient for the removal of all sins? Then the first apartment is symbolic for Christ sacrifice, all our sins were laid upon him. So after his resurrection he could have gone straight to the holy of holiest in order to forgive sin according to the principle of grace?

[John317]

Correct me if i am wrong but are you saying that in the first apartment our sins are recorded? So now we are living in 2009 we can t confess our sins anymore? How then does Christ deal with those that seek forgiveness now?

Jesus today is performing the same work in the Most Holy Place that He performed in the first apartment. The difference today is that He is additionally performing the last phase of His work, which is a work of judgement and blotting out of sins. You can certainly confess your sins. Confession of sins will continue until the closing of human probation, which occurs a short time before the Second Coming.

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Wasn t Christ life sufficient for the removal of all sins?

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for the forgiveness and removal of all sins. It's never necessary for Christ to be sacrificed again. Hebrews 9: 23-26.

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Then the first apartment is symbolic for Christ sacrifice, all our sins were laid upon him.

Actually the sacrifice of the lambs and goats and bulls in the courtyard were symbolic of the death of Christ. First the sacrifice was offered, then the sin was transferred by blood, or by the priest's eating some of flesh, into the sanctuary.

On the cross, Christ bore all of the sins of the whole world. They were put on Jesus just as if He had committed them. He assumed our fallen, sinful humanity, even though He Himself never committed sin. Hebrews 7: 26, 27.

[phkrause]

This is the way I've always been taught growing up about what Jesus is doing since his ascension to Heaven. I enjoyed reading your posts on the subject.

pk

[Guest truthseeker007]

Ok so how does the investigative judgement take place? It seems impossible to handle billions of cases in one courtroom, that would take thousands of years. Isn t the investigative judgement to investigate the life of Jesus instead of ours?

[John317]

Ok so how does the investigative judgement take place? It seems impossible to handle billions of cases in one courtroom, that would take thousands of years.

Remember that the Investigative Judgment only looks at the lives of those who have professed to have faith in God and Christ. So it examines the cases of everyone from Adam to the last generation of believers prior to Christ's return. If people have had their names registered in the Lamb's Book of Life, through belief in God and in the Messiah, their lives will come up for examination.

Of course that is many millions of people but it doesn't include everyone who has ever been born. The cases of those who have never accepted Christ will be examined during the 1000 years following the Second Coming.

This process of investigation has been going on now for almost 165 years. It could have ended much earlier. It doesn't require a certain amount of time to complete the investigation. Christ could have returned over a hundred year ago. Christ is waiting for a certain spiritual condition among His people. Rev. 19: 7. He waits because if He came today, many people would be lost who haven't yet made up their mind.

He's not waiting on the Investigative Judgment. For one thing, we measure time differently on earth than it is measured in heaven. And for another, Christ can examine people's lives in a moment of time. We don't know all the details of how people's lives are examined, but we do know that our entire lives are looked at, including thoughts, words, intentions, motives, etc. If it was simply up to the Father and Christ to know who is among the saved, they don't need any time at all to know the truth about everyone. But as the judgment scenes in Daniel and Revelation show, the whole onlooking universe of angels are also interested in seeing how God deals with the sin problem. They want to know the quality of our lives and our obedience to the Creator and who their neighbors are going to be for the rest of eternity.

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Isn t the investigative judgement to investigate the life of Jesus instead of ours?

Jesus' life is certainly the most important life that has ever been lived, and Jesus' perfect life is credited to us when we are in a faith-based, personal relationship with Christ. But one of the purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to determine who has had genuine faith in Christ and who does not have genuine faith. No one is saved by their works of faith, but our works of faith-- the prevailing character and direction of our lives-- demonstrate our faith. James 2: 14-26.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"And for another, Christ can examine people's lives in a moment of time. We don't know all the details of how people's lives are examined, but we do know that our entire lives are looked at, including thoughts, words, intentions, motives, etc. If it was simply up to the Father and Christ to know who is among the saved, they don't need any time at all to know the truth about everyone. But as the judgment scenes in Daniel and Revelation show, the whole onlooking universe of angels are also interested in seeing how God deals with the sin problem. They want to know the quality of our lives and our obedience to the Creator and who their neighbors are going to be for the rest of eternity."

I know that the investigative judgement serves particular purposes for the universe, but still it seems crazy to come up with every name of the book. Correct me if i am wrong but if the investigative judgement deals only with those names which have not been blotted out of the book of life, then how is he possibly going to show that we "deserve" to be in heaven. I mean we are all corrupted as hell so the creatures who haven t known sin will always disagree with God his decision to save us. What does the teaching of the investigative judgement do with the protestant discovery of being saved through grace by faith? Are there now works involved?

Maybe the investigative judgement is complementary to the protestant teachings rather than contradictionary.

[John317]

I know that the investigative judgement serves particular purposes for the universe, but still it seems crazy to come up with every name of the book.

The reference to "books" is to be understood as a record of our lives. It may be more like a computer disk or whatever. By "every name of the book," it's telling us that everyone will be remembered. No one will be forgotten.

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Correct me if i am wrong but if the investigative judgement deals only with those names which have not been blotted out of the book of life, then how is he possibly going to show that we "deserve" to be in heaven.

People who have never believed in Christ or who have always rejected God's Spirit-- have never even claimed to accept Christ-- have never had their names written in the Book of Life. So their names were never blotted out of the Book of Life.

Either our names will be blotted out or our sins will be blotted out.

Let's say that when a man was 21, he accepted Christ and asked for forgiveness of his sins. OK, his name is written in the Lambs Book of Life and Christ's blood (merits) covers that man's sins. But the sins stay on the record books. But then let's say this same man, when he is about 35, turns away from Christ and returns to his sinful ways. Will God allow that man to have his sin? Yes. Will God force him to be saved? No. God will send the Spirit to work on that man's mind and heart, but if really wants his sins, God will allow him to have them. The results will be sad and tragic but God won't force anyone to be saved if they don't want Christ in their life. See Ezekiel 3: 16-21.

But it's not a matter of anybody's deserving to be in heaven, TS. None of us deserve to be there. But the Bible does call for us to live lives "worthy" of the gospel. It uses this language quite a few times, actually. It isn't saying we have to prove we are deserving of being saved.

Salvation and being put right with God is a free gift.

You might think of it as a wife's love for her husband. He doesn't do things in order to prove he deserves her, but if he truly loves his wife, he will show her respect and not cheat on her. He will attempt to live a life that is worthy of her. That is the same that people who love God and Jesus do.

The Investigative Judgment reveals whose lives show that they are genuine believers in Christ. It's like Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey my commandments."

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I mean we are all corrupted as hell so the creatures who haven t known sin will always disagree with God his decision to save us.

It's true that we're all seriously messed up, especially when we compare ourselves to sinless beings in heaven or on the other worlds. But they've been watching how God has been dealing with this world since the Fall. They see the changes in people's lives after conversion. They have great faith in God and love for Christ.

God involves the whole universe of intelligent beings in these questions and wants them to be convinced that He's doing the right thing. He could have simply done what He wanted to do without going to all the trouble of asking the universe to watch and come to a conclusion. But God wants His intelligent creatures to be persuaded by evidence and reason.

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What does the teaching of the investigative judgement do with the protestant discovery of being saved through grace by faith? Are there now works involved?

Our lives simply show whether we really love and trust Him or not. The relationship between works and faith is described in James 2: 14-26. Faith without works is dead.

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Maybe the investigative judgement is complementary to the protestant teachings rather than contradictionary.

I think you're exactly right there. If the Investigative Judgment is understood correctly, there's no contradiction between it and the Bible teaching of salvation through God's grace.

[Guest truthseeker007]

John i agree with the most things you say, though there is one slight disagreement. Herb Montgomery says that from the foundations of the earth every name of every individual was written in his book. And that it is God his will that everyone should receive eternal life. But that our names will be blotted out when we do the wrong stuff.

So there are no names being written in the book of life, only names blotted out!