True-believer Posted March 3, 2009 Posted March 3, 2009 Finally, you will notice there is a certain amount of repetition and review. The major arguments of this paper are almost certainly new and largely incomprehensible to most Adventist readers. The repetition and review will help to interlock the pieces of the puzzle and connect the dots for readers who are unfamiliar with these concepts. I have tried to write this paper in the manner that would have appealed to my own (former) Adventist mind-set. My approach is simply to use the principles of logic-- easy principles, such as “You can't have your cake and eat it too.” Applying that kind of logic in its most basic form, if I am correct in the basic points as presented in this paper, it is IMPOSSIBLE that the Sabbath is a requirement for Christians. In order to continue in the belief that Christians must keep the Jewish Sabbath, a whole new set of valid defensive arguments would have to be created to counter my arguments. After having been an Adventist for over 50 years, I can not possibly comprehend how that could be accomplished. For example, if there is proof from Hebrew linguistics that Moses nixed even the possibility of his Hebrew readers “seeing” a Sabbath commandment in Genesis 2, Sabbatarian scholars must find some way to prove that Hebrew linguistics do not demonstrate this. How can you change the way the Hebrews wrote and used their language? This challenge, and a number of others like it, await you within these pages. God cares about TRUTH. You can not believe something just because you want to and believe it would be good for everyone else to believe also. We serve a God who is the Creator of logic Himself. He is not the author of chaos, and you are about to learn how the New Sabbatarianism has wreaked havoc with the Sabbath and Adventist theology in general to the degree that the sense of it all has been irreparably destroyed. Please join me on this guided tour of the battlefield! 1995 – A VERY BAD YEAR FOR ADVENTISM Immediately after The Great Disappointment of 1844, there was only one group of Advent Sabbath-keeping believers. Within just a few years, this group split into two separate factions over the issue of the Shut Door. One group became Seventh-day Adventists. The other group became The Worldwide Church of God. The Sabbath-keeping roots of these two denominations go back to exactly the same place and time. In 1995, The Worldwide Church of God renounced Sabbatarian theology and opened its doors for “business” on Sunday. Some time later, one of the Church’s leaders confessed that many of them had known for years about the impossible problems of its Sabbatarian theology, but had not known what to do about it. See: (http://www.quango.net/brinsmead/shorthis.htm. ) The renunciation of Sabbath-keeping by The Worldwide Church of God was a direct result of a chain of events inadvertently started by Seventh-day Adventist Sabbath scholar, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, who published a disastrous, inadequate defense of Sabbatarian theology entitled, From Sabbath to Sunday, in 1977. Bacchiocchi's book wreaked havoc with Adventist theology and proved that Ellen White, the Church's prophetess, lied when she Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Moderators John317 Posted March 3, 2009 Moderators Posted March 3, 2009 A tempest in a tea cup is what it amounts to so far. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted March 3, 2009 Moderators Posted March 3, 2009 John317, if you had 5 minutes and some patience, you could probably repost all these bits into one coherent thread that could be responded to coherently, and tidy up the forum in the process. ;-) And so far I see him (her?) boosting his/her own claims to massive heights. Oh, and we have a reference to Hitler and Goebbels, which by some interpretations of Godwin's law means the discussion is already over... Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted March 3, 2009 Moderators Posted March 3, 2009 PS Looks like there could be 20 or more of these posts Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted March 3, 2009 Moderators Posted March 3, 2009 Luke, if you wanted to email me the whole paper I could put it on a server and you could link to it. Not at all trying to silence it, it's just that this way of posting it is *very* untidy! Quote Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted March 3, 2009 Moderators Posted March 3, 2009 Why not post them all on a single thread, using short posts? Awful stuff, though. I feel badly that someone didn't apparently have anything better to do than write it. If this is the most that Sabbath keepers have to fear, we're in great shape. As Ellen White said, we have more to fear from the inside than from the outside. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 3, 2009 Moderators Posted March 3, 2009 John317, if you had 5 minutes and some patience, you could probably repost all these bits into one coherent thread that could be responded to coherently, and tidy up the forum in the process. ;-).... I was reading while you were writing. I'm sorry. I kind of have tunnel vision. I just saw your post here. You are right. I will ask Luke to post them all on a single thread. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
True-believer Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 John317, if you had 5 minutes and some patience, you could probably repost all these bits into one coherent thread that could be responded to coherently, and tidy up the forum in the process. ;-) And so far I see him (her?) boosting his/her own claims to massive heights. Oh, and we have a reference to Hitler and Goebbels, which by some interpretations of Godwin's law means the discussion is already over... Bravus, you are referring to the writer of this article as either male or female... Just to let you know... Kerry is MALE And goes to a non-denominational pentecostal church on SUNDAY... Does that mean Kerry is choosing man's way instead of God's way? Is Kerry choosing the mark of the beast--sunday? And forfieting God's sealing in the Sabbath--saturday? Interesting???????? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
True-believer Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Bravus John317, if you had 5 minutes and some patience, you could probably repost all these bits into one coherent thread that could be responded to coherently, and tidy up the forum in the process. ;-).... I was reading while you were writing. I'm sorry. I kind of have tunnel vision. I just saw your post here. You are right. I will ask Luke to post them all on a single thread. I tried to post it all on a single thread... but I was finding it hard... Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Moderators Bravus Posted March 4, 2009 Moderators Posted March 4, 2009 Ah, no worries, Luke - didn't have enough info to guess Kerry's gender, and the name can go either way, so I played it safe. I would be interested to see the whole paper - you've given us the fluff so far without the hard stuff! Surely it shouldn't be that hard to start a thread, post the first section, reply to yourself and post the second section, and so on? Or, as I said, email it to me at bravus@gmail.com and I'll post it for you. Quote Truth is important
True-believer Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 email it to me at bravus@gmail.com and I'll post it for you. I'm emailing it to you Bravus, its easier, because I'm lost--(not spiritually--LOL!!! Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Moderators John317 Posted March 4, 2009 Moderators Posted March 4, 2009 Does that mean Kerry is choosing man's way instead of God's way? Is Kerry choosing the mark of the beast--sunday? And forfieting God's sealing in the Sabbath--saturday? Given Kerry's knowledge of the Bible regarding the Sabbath, he is in a different position spiritually from those who have no knowledge about it. We can't know a man's heart, however, so we can't really judge. All we know is that he is wrong about the Sabbath/Sunday issue. We certainly need to pray for him because the Holy Spirit can help him to see clearly and change his mind. No one has received the mark of the beast. That won't happen until people have a clear choice whether to obey God or obey the Sunday legislation. People are being sealed by the Holy Spirit, but the sealing that occurs just before Christ returns, occurs at the same time that people are being marked with the mark of the beast. We can be sure that those who disregard the Sabbath and disobey it knowingly won't be sealed with the seal of God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 4, 2009 Moderators Posted March 4, 2009 I tried to post it all on a single thread... but I was finding it hard... Is it possible to post it in a number of shorter posts all on a single thread? If you can't, it would be a good idea to send it to Bravus, then. Thank you, Bravus!! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
True-believer Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 I've just sent some to Bravus. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Members phkrause Posted March 4, 2009 Members Posted March 4, 2009 I'm not judging but at this moment I would say that that is exactly what he is choosing, but only God knows his heart. I feel bad for him, but I do have experience with this. My brother has basicly done the same. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
olger Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 Is Kerry Wynn from Dayton, OH Luke? Boy, I hope not.. ger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Administrators Gail Posted March 5, 2009 Administrators Posted March 5, 2009 Is Kerry Wynn from Dayton, OH Luke? Boy, I hope not.. ger NOW I'm curious! Ger, please tell us more! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Moderators Gerr Posted March 5, 2009 Moderators Posted March 5, 2009 Perhaps. But boy, is he on very dangerous ground! Quote
True-believer Posted March 5, 2009 Author Posted March 5, 2009 Is Kerry Wynn from Dayton, OH Luke? Boy, I hope not.. ger I curious, what or where is Dayton and why do you hope not? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
olger Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 Dayton, Ohio. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
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