between me and Kerry

[True-believer]

Hello Luke!

I'm usually not up at this time of night here in the US, but I have had a bad case of the flu and my nights and days are switched around a bit in my "sleep center."

You are asking a question that I do not believe can be conclusively answered. The way the Adventists have it all worked out seems to be very consistent, except that their idea of soul sleep seems to clash greatly with some of Paul's very plain statements that suggest the contrary.

Hebrews 9:27,28 does not appear to help us decide the question either way. All we are told is that after death, we face a judgment. We are not told when that judgment will be. This text says that a person dies once, but a text in Revelation, perhaps Revelation 20, says that there is a second death for the wicked. I see no conflict here because Hebrews 9:27,28 is referring to the natural death that all of us here are Earth are familiar with.

If soul sleep is true, and it might be, the judgment comes at the Second Coming, perhaps. If we go directly to Heaven, that judgment has to be immediate, upon death, with a separation at that point to Heaven or Hell with some kind of a rendezvous between the two 1,000 years later for the final punishment to be dished out on the wicked.

My thinking has been so shaped by my 50-year Adventist heritage and the writings of Ellen G. White that it is difficult for me to articulate any other kind of a judgment scenario than what I have been taught. Something is not wrong because Adventists teach it, and Adventists are right about some things. The Adventist point-of-view has to be better than the Secret Rapture doctrine taught by many main-line Protestant churches.

If the righteous go straight to Heaven when they die, does God stuff them back into their graves for the resurrection that takes place at His Second Coming, resurrect them, and take them back to Heaven a second time? Do the righteous dead go to an intermediary "holding area" until the Second Coming? I don't know the answer to these questions.There is no evidence from the Bible that there is such a thing as a holding area.

Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul says that Jesus went down into Hell and preached the Gospel to the antediluvians who perished during the flood during the three days He was in the grave. Adventists tend to ignore any text that appears to disagree with what they want to believe is true, but they are not alone with this fault. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus directly teaches that the good and evil go to their respective destinations immediately at death. Jesus, in my opinion, would not use a theological lie to teach a spiritual truth. Ellen White said that this parable of Jesus does not teach that people go to Heaven or Hell immediately when they die. Myself, I am convinced that Jesus cares so much about TRUTH that He would not use error to teach some kind of a truth.

Note also that Jesus' parable seems to teach an enduring existence in both places, although that is not absolutely established by the brief "snap-shot" of a view Jesus gives us.

Hope this helps just a little, Luke. I expect to know all these answers within no more than 30 years from now and as early as a few minutes from now.

At the Vineyard Fellowship where my wife and I now worship, there is a strong central core of essential beliefs: the eternal existence of Jesus and God Himself, Creation in 7 days, The Flood, and the Inspiration of both the Old and New Testaments. Beyond a set of these basic key beliefs, there is tolerance in areas that are less clear, like the state of the dead and the pre/post mellinial question. It is a new experience for me to have to admit that there are some things which I can not absolutely know.

I'll be happy to continue working with you, Luke. May God bless you in your study.

Kerry

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From: Mr Luke Goss <goss.luke82@bigpond.com>

To: KERRY WYNNE <k.wynne@sbcglobal.net>

Sent: Monday, February 2, 2009 8:47:43 PM

Subject: RE: why i'm considering sda...

Hello Kerry,

But what about Hebrews 9:27+28

From Luke.

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From: KERRY WYNNE [mailto:k.wynne@sbcglobal.net]

Sent: Sunday, 1 February 2009 10:34 PM

To: Mr Luke Goss

Subject: Re: why i'm considering sda...

Luke:

I'll try my best to help you with these things. Perhaps you were reading my paper and noticed my reference to the problem Adventists have of twisting Bible prophecy to prove that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the only true Church for end-times.

If you are a non-thinking, accepting SDA, there is almost nothing you don't "know" about the Bible, TRUTH, and prophecy. If you accept the prophetic dates and their applications that form traditional Advntism, you have a whole string of prophetic dates and times which weave together to assure you that your Church is the only true one. Unfortunately, it seems, sometimes, and that the #1 attribute of Adventism is deception, and this is no exaggeration.

The 70 week prophecy and the 2,300 day prophecy that leads to 1844 and the Investigative Judgment both begin in 457 BC. A look at the facts of history shows that nothing of any significance happened on this date and that there were other dates within 30 years of 457 BC that would make a whole lot more sense to use as the starting date.

There is no proof, whatsoever, other than the testimony of Ellen White, that the end of the 70 week prophecy is when the Jews rejected the Gospel and the Gospel began to be preached to the Gentiles. I could go on and on about these twistings.

Here is another good example. The 1,260 days, again a sub-set of the 2,300 days, supposedly proves that the anathema of Adventism, the Roman Catholic Church, lost its power to persecute the true Church (EGW seems to think "Sabbath keepers) in 1798 when the pope was taken captive. Actually, history proves that the pope was taken captive a number of times throughout history and that the papacy returned to being its "old self" once the pope was released from captivity, about a year later, and that the papacy had significant power for at least another 30 to 40 years!

Now will Adventists admit they were wrong? If you remove 457 BC from the prophetic equasion, everything collapses in regard to proving Adventism is the one and only true religion!

I have attached a study on the 70 week prophecy that I got from Truth or Fables.Com. I hope it will open OK for with with Adobe Reader.

Personally, I do not see the 70 week prophecy as having anything to do with end times. I believe it did apply to a 490-year time period foretelling the appearance of Jesus. Thanks to the lack of good record keeping at the time, no one really knows exactly when Jesus was born! This is a prophecy I think we can "keep," but we can't use it to prove Adventism.

As an Adventist, I knew when everything was going to happen. Now, I understand that there are some things that God just has not shown us in detail. Perhaps you noticed the reference in my paper to the Investigative Judgment as it relates to the false teaching of soul sleep. Adventism is not even possible without a belief in soul sleep, because then the Investigative Judgment Doctrine is impossible. Since leaving the Adventist Church I have found one good principle to follow. If Adventists teach it, assume is is ERROR. Adventists are not wrong about everything, but it is a highly "suspect" teaching if it is one necessary to prove Adventists are the only true believers.

I wish I knew when the judgement takes place for certain, but I do not, and I do not have a strong burden to know exactly when it is. Thanks to the assurance of salvation, I no longer fear the judgment, not because I deserve even the slightest ounce of mercy, but because Jesus paid the price for me. He said believe in My Name, love me, and keep myself from a list of 23 or so gross sins. My motives stink to high Heaven and always will, even though they are improving, perhaps, a little each day as my walk with God grows closer.

The doctrine of soul sleep has encouraged many a sinner to live in sin. If you think you can raise Hell in this life and burn for only a few seconds or minutes to pay for a life-time of murder and mayhem, perhaps it is worth the price. On the other hand, if judgement represents an eternal separation from God that is conscious, that is a kind of eternal torture even if those in Hell are provided with a high standard of living, great comforts, and abundant food.

The Bible teaches that the righteous dead will spent 1,000 years in Heaven and then the Holy City will descend to the Planet Earth-- or at least it seems to teach this to me. I now believe we go straight to Heaven when we die, but I don't know for sure. There is more biblical evidence for this belief that the Adventist belief in soul sleep. If you take some of Paul's statements in a straight-forward manner, like Adventists should take Colossians 2:14-17 about the Sabbath, you can not possibly believe in soul sleep.

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From: Mr Luke Goss <goss.luke82@bigpond.com>

To: k.wynne@sbcglobal.net

Cc: nikolic@adam.com.au

Sent: Monday, February 2, 2009 5:33:40 PM

Subject: why i'm considering sda...

Hello Kerry,

There are two main reasons why I am even considering joining the sda Church …

1) I see in Daniel 2; 7; 8; 9:26-27, especially the whole 70 weeks prophecy is fulfilled;

2) The last seven years (last week of the 70), I can’t see it as the Tribulation period in the End Times, instead it is fulfilled with Christ on the Cross;

3) I see Post-Tribulation, Pre-Millennialism a whole lot more;

4) Hebrews 9:27, 28

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ------leading to Revelation 19----1000yrs in heaven;

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear a second time without sin unto salvation.

So according to the above Scripture reference I can see it reads:

1) We die once

2) We face judgment

When is this judgment?

----He shall appear a second time--------The Second Coming

From the moment we die until judgment—where are we?

In the grave ????????

I still don’t know!!!!!!!!

I’m trying to stay open-minded…

Of cause… I believe that when I die I will go straight to heaven, I don’t believe in soul-sleep… but???????

Could you help me please……..

From Luke….!!!

[True-believer]

Hi all,

I submitted a question about soul-sleep from death til the resurrection or is it straight to heaven or hell to burn eternally to Kerry.

According to Kerry's reply, he could NOT answer my questions.

According to me, Kerry is just another lost lamb that has wandered off the path of life.

[John317]

I agree, Luke. We sure need to pray for him. He does seem confused all right.

The Bible, of course, doesn't call it "soul-sleep," but we know what people mean by that term.