Kerry's email to the AdventistForum...

[True-believer]

To the AdventistForum from Kerry,

Again, if you will read the entire paper, you will find sufficient evidence to see that the Sabbath doctrine is, indeed, impossible. I will be glad to respond in detail to the Adventist Forum when you all have completed the reading of the paper. The response is fragmented, and with the constraints of time I face, as all of us are, I need to have an organized, point-by-point list of objections to respond to that cover the entire paper.

I will, however, respond to one objection at this time because I can see a pattern in the responses of the Adventist Forum.

The Adventist Forum needs to know that you were furnished with a rough draft of this paper because you needed the information at this time. This draft was assembled over a four-year period of time as one revelation after another of problems with Sabbatarianism were uncovered by my study. The final draft will be radically different and organized to reduce the repetition, but the document will not be ready for about six months. It is being prepared in book form, and it will be more thoroughly documented. I am not a professional writer, and the new book is being written in conjunction with a very good biblical scholar. It will be better. Again, my apologies to the Forum for its poor quality.

However, at this time, working with what I provided you, the paper is organized the way it is. Unfortunately for those who are trying to respond to it, you must read the entire paper from one end to the other before you get all the historical and biblical support I have to offer.

I am asking that the Adventist Forum distribute the document in its entirety and that there be no response from members who have not read the paper through from one end to the other. For example, reading the document completely through would have sufficiently addressed their objections to what I said about the history of Sabbath abandonment after the death of Paul. The document is not copyrighted. However, I can be made to look inadequate if certain portions of the paper are reacted to before the entire book of evidence has been reviewed.

Please ask the Adventist Forum to take down all the fragmented postings and distribute the document entirely. Adventist Forum members may e-mail me for a PDF version of the paper, or you may sent them my RTF version for this purpose.

When everyone has studied the entire paper, and a functional discussion is possible, I will be more than happy to participate with forum members within the forum itself. We should all have a good time together. This is not about personalities. It is about ideas, and it is my prayer that all of us can participate in a good spirit.

The Advent Forum is grasping at straws to prove that there were faithful groups of Christians who kept the Sabbath long after the death of Paul. It is true that there were small groups of Christians who either continued in error or rediscovered the error of Sabbatarianism, having lost, through the annals of time, the TRUTH about the Gospel.

The Advent Forum seems not to be acquainted with the work of Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, whose book, From Sabbath to Sunday, concedes what biblical scholars have almost always known, and that is that Sabbath abandonment by Christians was universal by 140 AD. Dr. Bacchiocchi almost certainly had access to all the very earliest Christian writings, and he apparently did not find any reason to try to disagree with what had always been known about the problem of Sabbath abandonment. Perhaps the Forum needs to study his book.

The fact that some small groups of Christians continued to keep the Sabbath or re-discovered the error of Sabbatarian later on, as did Seventh-day Adventists, can not possibly deter from the fact that the earliest Christian writings document that they understood that the Sabbath was not given in Eden and that Sabbath abandonment began around 70 AD and was virtually universal by 100-140 AD.

What the Adventist Forum would have to provide to refute my arguments would be evidence to show that Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, their own Sabbath expert, was wrong. This can not be done very easily, because he had access, I would imagine, to virtually every document from Early Church history at the Vatican.

With a little patience in reading my paper, you will see that I have taken the time to provide abundant evidence that not only was Dr. Bacchiocchi correct, but that he did not go far enough. The evidence from the writings of the Early Church is that abandonment of the Sabbath began prior to 70 AD, was documented in 70 AD, and was wide-spread by 100 AD. The forum must prove that this is not so, but authentic Early Church writings document the fact of it.

Finally, whatever may have been done by Christians in the millenniums that have passed by since the death of Paul, the main thing is what the Bible teaches about Sabbatarianism. Your friends at the Adventist Forum must grapple with the biblical principles I outlined in the paper, such as the proof from Hebrew linguistics that the Sabbath was not given in Eden, the connection between the Sabbath and circumcision, and three key texts in St. Paul, and especially Colossians 2:14-17.

Keep this ever in your mind, Luke. I was an Adventist for over 50 years. I have used all the arguments your friends at the Adventist Forum to prove the Sabbath to other people over the years. Do not think for one minute that I would turn my back on Adventism without a great deal of thought. Bacchiocchi's writings were supposed to be the thing that would save me from my doubts about the Sabbath. Instead, his writings confirmed my suspicions. That is why I have taken the time in the bulk of my paper to refute him point-by-point.

Here is a fact for the Adventist Forum to ponder. Christians stopped worshiping on Sabbath universally by 140 AD. Ellen White said the Roman Catholic Church changed the day. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist until hundreds of years later. She lied. Dr. Samuele Bacchciocchi proved it.

With all the reading I have asked you to do, I hesitate to give you anything more. However, since I have responded to one point from the Adventist Forum, and that is the history of Sabbath keeping after the death of Paul, I have taken the liberty to provide you with a document by D. M. Canright which shows what Adventist leaders knew about this subject prior to 1920. Canright was like a refiner's fire to Adventist leaders, giving them almost a constant stream of information that proved that Sabbatarianism is impossible. It is a short document when compared to mine, and it should make the most interesting reading.

Since the early 1900's, much more is known about Sabbath-keeping and the Early Church, and none of it is very friendly to the Sabbatarian version of it. By the 1960's and 19770's, the much better picture of the Early Church had developed, and none of it is compatible with what Ellen White taught about the "apostasy" theory of Sabbath abandonment.

Thanks!

Kerry

[John317]

The final draft will be radically different and organized to reduce the repetition, but the document will not be ready for about six months. It is being prepared in book form, and it will be more thoroughly documented. I am not a professional writer, and the new book is being written in conjunction with a very good biblical scholar. It will be better.

I will wait, then, until the final document is fully prepared. No use responding to something that Kerry would probably concede is not his best communication of the issue.

Quote:

KERRY-- I am asking that the Adventist Forum distribute the document in its entirety and that there be no response from members who have not read the paper through from one end to the other.

Can the Forum expect that Kerry will also fully read, and respond to, documentation and rebuttals from the Forum?

Quote:

KERRY-- Please ask the Adventist Forum to take down all the fragmented postings and distribute the document entirely.

The postings up to this point are fair responses to Kerry's paper as it appears in the present form. I see no good reason to remove them.

Quote:

KERRY-- When everyone has studied the entire paper, and a functional discussion is possible, I will be more than happy to participate with forum members within the forum itself. We should all have a good time together. This is not about personalities. It is about ideas, and it is my prayer that all of us can participate in a good spirit.

I agree. But that means that neither side will talk about people "lying," or being dishonest. That goes to motivation, something we can't know. We should stick to the information and the issues, not personalities and not making personal attacks. Rebut arguments, not people. From my viewpoint, that means not attacking groups or individuals, but refuting ideas, reasons, and evidence.

Quote:

KERRY-- The Advent Forum seems not to be acquainted with the work of Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, whose book, From Sabbath to Sunday, concedes what biblical scholars have almost always known, and that is that Sabbath abandonment by Christians was universal by 140 AD.

Please read from chapter 6 of Bacchiocchi's book, From Sabbath to Sunday. Part of it is given below. I am afraid that it is Kerry who seems not to be too well acquainted with this work.

(We will hold Kerry to this remark that we find here in this post.)

Quote:

A strict Sabbath fast would naturally preclude also the celebration of the Eucharist, since the partaking of its elements could be regarded as breaking the fast. While some Christians opposed such a view, believing rather that the reception of the Lord’s Supper made their fast more solemn,90 in Rome we know for certain that Saturday was made not only a day of fasting, but also a day in which no eucharistic celebration and no religious assemblies were allowed. Pope Innocent I (A.D. 402-417) in his famous letter to Decentius which was later incorporated into the Canon Law, establishes that "as the tradition of the Church maintains, in these two days [Friday and Saturday] one should not absolutely (penitus) celebrate the sacraments."91 Two contemporary historians, namely Sozomen (ca. A.D. 440) and Socrates (ca. A.D. 439) confirm Innocent I’s decretal. The latter writes, for instance, that "although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."92

Socrates does not explain why in Rome and Alexandria there were no eucharistic celebrations on the Sabbath; he states however that the custom went back to "an ancient tradition." This would allow us to suppose that the proscription of the celebration of the Mass and the injunction of fasting, because of their close nexus, may well have originated contemporaneously, possibly early in the second century as part of the effort to break away from Jewish rites.

Sozomen’s description of the customs prevailing in his day is strikingly similar to the one of Socrates, though he speaks only of religious assemblies, without reference to any eucharistic celebration. He confirms however that while "the people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week," such a "custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."

In the light of this cumulative evidence, it appears that the Church of Rome played a key role in early Christianity in emptying the Sabbath of its theological-liturgical significance and in urging the abandonment of its observance. The injunction to fast on the Sabbath, accompanied by the prohibition to celebrate the Lord’s Supper and to hold religious meetings on this day, represent definite measures taken by the Church of Rome, on the one hand, to wean Christians away from the veneration of the Sabbath, and, on the other hand, to enhance Sunday worship exclusively. The reason for such an intransigent attitude toward Jewish institutions such as Sabbath-keeping can be found in the need for a radical differentiation from Judaism which was particularly felt in the early part of the second century.

Quote:

KERRY-- The evidence from the writings of the Early Church is that abandonment of the Sabbath began prior to 70 AD, was documented in 70 AD, and was wide-spread by 100 AD. The forum must prove that this is not so, but authentic Early Church writings document the fact of it.

It will be good to see your final product in writing. We'll be glad to respond at that time.

Quote:

KERRY-- Here is a fact for the Adventist Forum to ponder. Christians stopped worshiping on Sabbath universally by 140 AD. Ellen White said the Roman Catholic Church changed the day. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist until hundreds of years later. She lied.

First of all, it wouldn't matter if all the world forgot God's law and said that it wasn't necessary to obey it. But second of all, it is simply not true that all Christians stopped worshipping on the Sabbath by AD 140. Two church historians, Socrates and Sozoman, both wrote that Christians in the fourth and fifth centuries were celebrating the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath. This is only a small part of the evidence against the notion that by AD 140, Christians had stopped worshipping on the Sabbath "universally." Also, if that were the case, there would have no need to pass laws prohibiting "Sabbatizing."

Another point that needs to be made here is that it's unfair to accuse Ellen White of "lying," because we can't know her motivation, and lying is an attempt to deceive people. Therefore we need to dispense with accusations of "lying." It will be enough to show that she was mistaken and wrong. We will do the same in regard to Kerry. If we show Kerry to be wrong, we will not say that he is "lying."

The fact is that historians refer to the Roman CAtholic Church very early in the history of the Church. For instance, see the following from the Widipedia---

Quote:

From as early as the first century, the Church of Rome was recognized as a doctrinal authority because it was believed that the Apostles Peter and Paul had led the Church there. The concept of the primacy of the Roman bishop over other churches was increasingly recognized by the church at large from at least the second century. From the year 100 onward, teachers like Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus defined Catholic teaching in stark opposition to Gnosticism. Church teachings and traditions were influenced over time by other Church Fathers such as Pope Clement I, Justin Martyr, Augustine of Hippo. In 325, the First Council of Nicaea convened in response to the threat of Arianism, formulated the Nicene Creed as a basic statement of Christian belief, and divided the church into geographical and administrative areas called dioceses. Although this council sanctioned the primacy of three dioceses—Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch—Rome had certain qualities that destined it for particular prominence; it was considered the see of Peter and Paul, it was located in the capital of the empire, church scholars were desirous of obtaining the Roman bishop's support in doctrinal disputes, and it was wealthy and known for supporting other churches around the world.

Emperor Constantine I commissioned the first Basilica of St. Peter and several other sites of lasting importance to Christianity. By this time, the altar as the focal point of each church, the sign of the cross, and the liturgical calendar had been established and in 380, Christianity was declared the sole religion of the Empire.

Quote:

KERRY-- With all the reading I have asked you to do, I hesitate to give you anything more. However, since I have responded to one point from the Adventist Forum, and that is the history of Sabbath keeping after the death of Paul, I have taken the liberty to provide you with a document by D. M. Canright which shows what Adventist leaders knew about this subject prior to 1920. Canright was like a refiner's fire to Adventist leaders, giving them almost a constant stream of information that proved that Sabbatarianism is impossible. It is a short document when compared to mine, and it should make the most interesting reading.

The fact that Kerry even brings up D.M. Canright as a credible witness against the Sabbath causes me to lose confidence in Kerry as a student of church history and of the history of the Sabbath. I am hopeful that Kerry uses Canright a great deal in this paper.

Quote:

KERRY-- This draft was assembled over a four-year period of time as one revelation after another of problems with Sabbatarianism were uncovered by my study. The final draft will be radically different and organized to reduce the repetition, but the document will not be ready for about six months. It is being prepared in book form, and it will be more thoroughly documented. I am not a professional writer, and the new book is being written in conjunction with a very good biblical scholar. It will be better. Again, my apologies to the Forum for its poor quality.

However, at this time, working with what I provided you, the paper is organized the way it is. Unfortunately for those who are trying to respond to it, you must read the entire paper from one end to the other before you get all the historical and biblical support I have to offer.....

I look forward to reading it when it is in its final form six months from now.

Quote:

KERRY-- The evidence from the writings of the Early Church is that abandonment of the Sabbath began prior to 70 AD, was documented in 70 AD, and was wide-spread by 100 AD. The forum must prove that this is not so, but authentic Early Church writings document the fact of it.

"Abandonment of the Sabbath" by some or even by many is not at issue. Truth is not determined by how many Christians believe in it, nor is the right day to keep as the Sabbath determined by how many Christians are keeping it. Suppose all Christians stopped believing in the Second Coming or in a host of other Bible truths. Would that mean those Bible doctrines are not true?

But the fact is that the Sabbath was not abandoned, but Sabbath keeping was still practiced in the church by 100 AD, particularly in those churches outside of Rome and Alexandria.

Quote:

KERRY-- Finally, whatever may have been done by Christians in the millenniums that have passed by since the death of Paul, the main thing is what the Bible teaches about Sabbatarianism.

I completely agree with this. In fact, the Bible evidence is the only thing that is really important. It is not a good thing to get one's theology from the Church Fathers. The Bible is the measuring stick, not the Church Fathers or extra-biblical documents or history.

[Bravus]

Just a short note also that the full version of the paper has been published on this site in two different forms for over a day now - anyone who wants to read it has full access.

[John317]

Kerry says he is still writing the final form which won't be available for another six months. If others want to respond before then, that's OK, but I myself plan to wait until I see the final product before I write anything further about it.

[guibox]

I have read all of Bachiocchi's books on the Sabbath and NOWHERE have I read that the Sabbath had been 'universally' abandoned buy AD 140. Instead, as John pointed out, and in other places, Bacchiocchi shows that many churches outside of Rome were still celebrating the Sabbath. The head Christian church in Jerusalem as one very credible example. This is far from 'universally' abandoning the Sabbath.

And I also agree with John on the EGW issue. EGW was only a 'liar' if you believe her motives were impure. This cannot be proven and all other evidence shows the exact opposite. EGW is only a 'false prophet' if you hold her up to an infallible standard. EGW was a product of her times and used the historical information of others. She was not a historian and did not claim to be. Uriah Smith was inaccurate in much of his historical data. EGW used him as a source.

Kerry, I'm sorry to say that you have not brought anything knew under the sun that hasn't been hashed out already. And as for disputing Bacchiochi, 'point by point', I doubt that is truly possible. Your mentioning the tired old, out of context point of Colossians 2:14 is proof that it cannot be done. Bacchiocchi's view on this is rock solid in context and goes against the notion that ANY law was nailed to the cross be it ceremonial or moral.

The biblical evidence and context shows that the Sabbath was not abrogated and trying to use Paul to do it merely shows the fallacies of proof texting just like people accuse SDAs of doing to support other doctrines.

[BobRyan]

How "odd" that in Kerry's "No Sabbath support" arguments having Sabbath totally refuted by the start of the 1900's - we STILL have to "wait patiently" for Kerry's book to "get organized" before we can finally see the real argument for why Christ the Creator's memorial of HIS work in the 7 literal days of creation week -- should be ignored.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Oh no wait!! Kerry says we already HAVE the book that totally refutes the need to keep Sabbath! He says it is "From Sabbath to Sunday" By Samuel Bacciocchi!! Funny thing is -- I already read it and did not see him arguing that the first century teaching of the Apostles themselves was shown to be "downsized ten commandments".

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

To the AdventistForum from Kerry,

Again, if you will read the entire paper, you will find sufficient evidence to see that the Sabbath doctrine is, indeed, impossible.

If I read every paper and every book put out by renegades and critics, I would be doing nothing else. The word of life is in THE WORD, not in their works. I would rather spend time with the truth rather than the works of man that purports to have the truth!

Let Kerry come in to the forum and present BIBLICAL evidence for his position!

[cordelil]

Frankly, I don't care about this issue. I went to my first SDA service last week.. I was treated warmly and with respect. I am a 61 year old divorced man who is relusive and lonely. I lack a human connection and the Adventists appear to offer one.

John

[Woody]

Being a 51 year old once divorced and lonely recluse .... I feel it is my privilege to welcome you.

[True-believer]

Frankly, I don't care about this issue. I went to my first SDA service last week.. I was treated warmly and with respect. I am a 61 year old divorced man who is relusive and lonely. I lack a human connection and the Adventists appear to offer one.

John

Welcome...

Glad you have found the truth...

And you find the Church very warm and friendly...

We nead more churches like that--warm and friendly--most ain't.

[cordelil]

I knew I was in the right place.

John