Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 If i am right, the SDA church teaches that everybody in the second ressurection will be destroyed in the flames of fire. But is this correct? Jesus says that the ones from the first ressurection will reign with him for a thousand years. These saints already know a lot about God, his character etc. Couldn t it be true that the first resurrection is for the saints, but that in the second ressurection some people will still be saved? Quote
Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 by the way i am sick now and i have got a lot of work to do. I would appreciate it if some of you would pray for healing. Thanks in advance Quote
True-believer Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 If i am right, the SDA church teaches that everybody in the second ressurection will be destroyed in the flames of fire. But is this correct? Jesus says that the ones from the first ressurection will reign with him for a thousand years. These saints already know a lot about God, his character etc. Couldn t it be true that the first resurrection is for the saints, but that in the second ressurection some people will still be saved? Yes, you are right, the Bible does teach of two ressurections, the first one found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17--which is for the True-Believers in Christ only and the second ressurrection is for the False-Believers--people who don't believe--will be cast into the Lake Of Fire at the end of the 1000yrs of us being in heaven with Christ in Revelation 19. Revelation 20 says the unbelievers along with the false prophet and satan will all be cast into the Lake of Fire and will burn FOREVER AND EVER. Some Adventists say that "Forever" means until there's no more left of ya... OR... Some Adventists take it LITERALLY that unbelievers do in fact do have non-stop torment of burning forever and ever ongoing over the centuries. So, were kinda split over this on issue????? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
True-believer Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 by the way i am sick now and i have got a lot of work to do. I would appreciate it if some of you would pray for healing. Thanks in advance I will pray for you truthseeker007 that you get better soon. Always remember 2 Chronicles 7:14-16...--Paraphased We're the people of God, we are called by His name, we will humble ourselves, and we will pray and we will seek your face, and we will turn from our wicked ways, and You will hear from heaven and heal our land. Please read the whole lot in your own Bible. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Moderators John317 Posted March 16, 2009 Moderators Posted March 16, 2009 Some Adventists say that "Forever" means until there's no more left of ya... OR... Some Adventists take it LITERALLY that unbelievers do in fact do have non-stop torment of burning forever and ever ongoing over the centuries. So, were kinda split over this on issue????? Who are the Seventh-day Adventists who believe that unbelievers experience non-stop torment forever and ever? There may be some individuals who believe this but the church itself has always believed that the dead do not know anything and that the wicked do not have immortal souls. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
True-believer Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: True-believer Some Adventists say that "Forever" means until there's no more left of ya... OR... Some Adventists take it LITERALLY that unbelievers do in fact do have non-stop torment of burning forever and ever ongoing over the centuries. So, were kinda split over this on issue????? Who are the Seventh-day Adventists who believe that unbelievers experience non-stop torment forever and ever? There may be some individuals who believe this but the church itself has always believed that the dead do not know anything and that the wicked do not have immortal souls. I know of Seventh-day Adventists who are split on the issue of unbelievers burning forever and forever--nonstop.................... Yes, I know the SDA Church in general does not believe in it.......... BUT.......... The people inside this paticular denomination ARE split in half on this issue... Anyhow, it is biblical I believe. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Planey Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 The people inside this paticular denomination ARE split in half on this issue... I don't believe this for a second. If there are some within the church who hold an aberrant belief on the state of the dead, they would be an extremely small minority worldwide. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
BobRyan Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Agreed - in fact I have never MET or even online-debated with ANY SDA that believes that the wicked suffer eternal torment. "In theory" I suppose it is possible to dig one up some place -- HAS ANYONE here found even ONE?? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 If i am right, the SDA church teaches that everybody in the second ressurection will be destroyed in the flames of fire. But is this correct? Jesus says that the ones from the first ressurection will reign with him for a thousand years. These saints already know a lot about God, his character etc. Couldn t it be true that the first resurrection is for the saints, but that in the second ressurection some people will still be saved? Not even possible. 1. Because "saints" by definition are "those who are saved". 2. Because Rev 20:4-5 says specifically of those in the FIRST resurrection "OVER THESE the 2nd death has no power" - which means that over those of the 2nd resurrection "The second death DOES have power". 3. Because those judged in the Great White Throne judgment are judged according to their deeds apart from the Gospel - and by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 4. Because in Rev 15:8 the Heavenly Sanctuary service "ended" and so also Christ's role as High Priest. 5. Because in John 16 it is the Holy Spirit who "CONVICTS" of sin and righteousness and judgement - which is the ONLY way that ANY sinner comes to Christ. 6. Because in Romans 3 we are told that APART from the Holy Spirit "there is NONE who seeks after God - no not ONE". (There may be some more reasons - but these come to mind at the moment) in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Members phkrause Posted March 16, 2009 Members Posted March 16, 2009 I agree with Bob, Truthseeker007. Not preaching truthseeker, but have you read the Bible? You could not have gotten that info from the Bible! And if you got that from any SDAs, that's really sad. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted March 16, 2009 Moderators Posted March 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Who are the Seventh-day Adventists who believe that unbelievers experience non-stop torment forever and ever? There may be some individuals who believe this but the church itself has always believed that the dead do not know anything and that the wicked do not have immortal souls. [/quote'] I know of Seventh-day Adventists who are split on the issue of unbelievers burning forever and forever--nonstop.................... Yes, I know the SDA Church in general does not believe in it.......... BUT.......... The people inside this paticular denomination ARE split in half on this issue... Anyhow, it is biblical I believe. But if what you say is true, they cannot be people who believe in the Spirit of Prophecy and they cannot be people who have ever even published a book about their views. As I say, perhaps a few individuals are saying these things, but they are not at all representative of the any congregation or church. On a different SDA forum, I am dialoguing with a person who says he is SDA, and he is totally opposed to the Trinity. But that doesn't mean the SDA church is divided on the issue. It just means that there are some people who don't believe in a particular doctrine. There was a time when most of our church opposed the Trinity but that is no longer the case. There is no more division over the matter, although there continues to be some voices that oppose the doctrine. If there were a significant percentage of the church who believed in those things, then you could say rightly that the church is divided. For instance, if you had delegates at the GC saying these things, or if our publications were bringing these things to our notice, then we could honestly say our church is divided over them. We do have some division over doctrines such as the Investigative Judgment, Righteousness by Faith, and the writings of Ellen White, but as far as I can see there is no genuine or real division over the doctrine of the state of the dead. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 16, 2009 Moderators Posted March 16, 2009 I know of Seventh-day Adventists who are split on the issue of unbelievers burning forever and forever--nonstop.................... Yes, I know the SDA Church in general does not believe in it.......... BUT.......... The people inside this paticular denomination ARE split in half on this issue... Anyhow, it is biblical I believe. Maybe you have seen posts by someone called "Dr. Rich." He has a radio program and apparently is SDA. He goes to an SDA church just a few miles from me. Well, "Dr. Rich" says that he believes St. Paul was a fake and a liar, or at least that Paul didn't really meet Christ on the road to Damascus, and that Paul taught doctrines from the devil. "Dr. Rich" also believes that we can't depend on the writings of Luke, and that Ellen White is the Jezebel referred to in Rev. 2: 20. What is amazing to me is that "Dr. Rich" is an SDA (or at least claims to be) and that he teaches these things in a Sabbath school class at an SDA church. The question is, does this mean that his ideas show there's a division in our church? I don't believe so. All I believe it does is show that prophecy is being fulfilled and that Christ is coming soon. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Pkrause i ve red the bible and that s why i came here with questions. I know about the two ressurections already and that there is no such thing as eternal torment. However i was only wondering whether everybody in the second resurrection will be destroyed. I am wondering this because the bible says that in the 1000 years after the first resurrection the saints will reign together with Christ and they ll be the judges of the people in the second resurrection. But from the bible alone, i can t find the belief that every person in the second resurrection will be destroyed. Maybe some of them will still be saved and the reason that they are not resurrected in the first resurrection is because they are not the right people at the right time in the millenium since they perhaps don t know anything about God and his ways. Anyway, i was also wondering, what does it mean to fullfill the law? I believe that Jesus came to fullfill the law, in other words to keep the law perfectly (something none of us can), so his sacrifice is justified and he gains the legal right to determine who get s saved and who will be lost. So if we fail we can fall back on Jesus who kept the law perfectly according to the spirit and the law. Just some thoughts... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 17, 2009 Moderators Posted March 17, 2009 TS, your answer is found in Rev. 20: 6. It says that those who are raised in the first resurrection are blessed because the second death has no power over them. It is saying that if anyone is raised in the second resurrection, the second death will most certainly have power of them. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that anyone raised in the second resurrection will be saved. Quite the contrary if we read what Rev. 20 says as well as the Spirit of Prophecy. Rev. 20: 15 says that anyone not found written in the Book of Life will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Compare Rev. 19: 21; 20: 9. What it is saying is that we will definitely want to be raised in the first resurrection and not sleep beyond it. If we find that we are awakened too late, we should not get our hopes up of seeing a positive resolution. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 On a different SDA forum, I am dialoguing with a person who says he is SDA, and he is totally opposed to the Trinity. But that doesn't mean the SDA church is divided on the issue. It just means that there are some people who don't believe in a particular doctrine. There was a time when most of our church opposed the Trinity but that is no longer the case. Yes I was shocked to meet one or two of those people from time to time - but given some of the early SDA history in the 1800's and what James White published -- I can see that some people might be confused in that area still. But never have I heard either immortal soul (consciousness in death) or hell-torments-forever from Adventists. In fact that is one of the first things they learn about when they become an Adventist. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks John for always providing me with plain answers. Though i am still wondering what you have to say about that fullfillment part. What did Jesus mean when he said that he fullfilled the law? does it mean that if we fail to keep the law Jesus can complete us because he kept the whole law perfectly? Quote
BobRyan Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Pkrause i ve red the bible and that s why i came here with questions. I know about the two ressurections already and that there is no such thing as eternal torment. However i was only wondering whether everybody in the second resurrection will be destroyed. I am wondering this because the bible says that in the 1000 years after the first resurrection the saints will reign together with Christ and they ll be the judges of the people in the second resurrection. But from the bible alone, i can t find the belief that every person in the second resurrection will be destroyed. Maybe some of them will still be saved and the reason that they are not resurrected in the first resurrection is because they are not the right people at the right time in the millenium since they perhaps don t know anything about God and his ways. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators John317 Posted March 17, 2009 Moderators Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks John for always providing me with plain answers. Though i am still wondering what you have to say about that fullfillment part. What did Jesus mean when he said that he fullfilled the law? does it mean that if we fail to keep the law Jesus can complete us because he kept the whole law perfectly? That's really a great question, TS. Christ fulfilled the law in two fundamental ways. The Mosaic system of sacrifices, as well as the moral law, anticipated Jesus Christ. It all pointed forward to the time when He would come and die for us; but before He died, Christ also perfectly obeyed the law (his Father's will), showing that, when we have the Spirit in us and depend on the Father for power, the law can be obeyed. So Jesus fulfilled the law in the sense that He fulfilled the types or shadows, and He also fulfilled all righteousness (or right-doing). When we come to Him in full faith and putting our trust in His merits (His perfect life), God places this righteousness to our account. It is really as if we did those righteous acts. God not only forgives us of our sins but He treats us and sees us as righteous as His own Son. We get credit for doing all the righteous acts that Christ did. That is what it means in Romans 4: 9-11 when it says that Abraham believed God and so God accounted him as righteous. Matt. 3: 15 shows how Jesus did all that God requires. This righteous, perfect life that Christ lived, He now offers to give freely to you and me. That seems too good to be true, but it is what the Bible teaches. And it dosn't stop there. He is available 24/7 to give us grace and power in time of need. Heb. 4: 14-16. So you have something to be very cheerful about, TS.!!!!!!!!!! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks John, that was a very clear answer once again. So if i am right Jesus sacrifice is the basis on which we can build new lives in him. But what if we come to him, get baptised and all that stuff, and we fail tremendously in keeping his commandments? I am not baptised yet because i don t want to claim to represent God and at the same time make him look awfull by my own bad habits. Is it God his responsibility to change me? i ve got the will but i don t have the strength to do what is right. You know what amazes me, you have been able to live a balanced life in Christ, but as soon as i start to "follow" him i get severely attacked by hostile thoughts and feelings. Then i literally want to scream, start to bite in my hand and come up with very sophisticated theories. The last couple of weeks i ve lived miserably once again. But if i stop living biblically, at least i ve got some rest. I have got two extreme lifestyles. On the one hand i can reject God and feel very empty, or i can follow God and get depressed frustrated ridiculed etc. I don t think i ll ever be okay so i just gave up. Furthermore i am wondering what i ve been fighting so hard for. Today i was thinking about the knowledge of good and evil. The suggestion came up in my mind that God didn t want us to know what is "good" or what is "evil" because God his reignment is evil, and as long as we don t realise that God knows that we won t rebel against him. So rather than blaming the snake we should be thankfull for him. I never believe every suggestion that comes up in my mind, but i don t have an answer for this. One major reason why i quit following God is that he made tremendous promises in the bible, but he never seems to give a clear answer. Though today in my garden i thought, maybe Jesus was saying all those things to the people because at that time they needed such promises, maybe today he works differently, i don t know. I do know that a lot of confusion and misunderstandings about God, especially in the atheist community, are the result of a lack of reason and understanding. A lot of christians are afraid to use reason and therefore remain ignorant. On the other hand a lot of atheists don t want to believe in God because reason prevents them. They say "look at all the mess in the world" and "look what trouble Christianity brought to this planet". They don t understand the bigger picture. Now i am willing to present God in truth, but if God doesn t answer my prayers then it s like my hands are bound behind my back. Then i can t help feeling like God "deserves" this hostile attitude towards him. Though i know of course that that is not completely true... Quote
Members phkrause Posted March 17, 2009 Members Posted March 17, 2009 Well that's good TS, I was just curious. I think John and Bob have given you some really good texts to read. I'm also glad that you are still here and asking some great questions TS. Hope all is going well with you. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Woody Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Hey TS. Your friend Red here ... Just wanted to say hi. Good to see that you are still searchin' for truth. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Hi Red nice to see u again. I am doing not very well, i ve made a paper about Iraq but it wasn t good enough, now i am depressed. I have to make a second improved edition. DO you want to pray for me, that this time the paper will be good enough? I don t understand why the paper wasn t good enough, the results were exactly the same as the report from the European Commision. I ve made many papers, all of em i ve passed with good grades, so it really comes as a surprise for me. You know, after i started that evolution coming from the devil thread-thing, i was saying to myself "now i am going to expose the devil and if he plays hide and seek then that will only be more helpfull because it gives me rest", suddenly two packets of candles came flying to the ground with a loud bang on the floor so they were broken. Back then i already was afraid that the devil would work on the mind of my teacher so i wouldn t get a sufficient mark on my paper. He knows that when i receive academic titles, people will give me more credibility. So please pray that this time i ll make a good paper, that would be nice. Thanks in advance... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 19, 2009 Moderators Posted March 19, 2009 Thanks John, that was a very clear answer once again. So if i am right Jesus sacrifice is the basis on which we can build new lives in him. But what if we come to him, get baptised and all that stuff, and we fail tremendously in keeping his commandments? One of the most important things for us to realize is that God does not cast us off easily. He fights for us; He does battle for us; real warfare. Unless we really don't want Him and we want to go our own way, He doesn't give us up. He is not shocked one bit at our struggles or to see us sometimes fail. He knows our hearts even better than we do. He knows our weakness and our lives completely. He knows knows, too, far better than we do how desperately we need Him. Sometimes we may get frustrated and even despair at our failures, but He is always there for us if we come to Him acknowledging our need and agreeing with His diagnosis. Even He can't help us if we refuse to recognize our condition. We can't possibly keep the commandments on our own. It's the fruit of a personal, faith-based relationship with Christ, and even then, people do fail to live up to God's ideal. Notice that in John 14: 15, Jesus said that if we love Him, we will obey His commandments. For me, that means if I am not obeying His commandments, I need to love Jesus more. Doing what Jesus wants is the supernatural result of knowing and loving Him. It's not a question of our trying harder to obey but of being deep into a committed, sincere relationship with Jesus Christ. It's a day to day experience-- actually a moment by moment experience. Quote: I am not baptised yet because i don t want to claim to represent God and at the same time make him look awfull by my own bad habits. I can appreciate your feeling about this, TS, but if you truly love Jesus Christ and are committed to living for Him and having Him be Lord of your life, there is no Biblical reason for you not to be baptized. Ask the Holy Spirit into your life and Christ to be Master of your life. Satan is going to put up a fight to keep you-- that's guaranteed. But if you really love Christ and want Him to reign in your heart, Satan will eventually have to step aside and let Christ take over. Baptism is a public acknowledgment that this is the decision that you have made. It means that you have died to sin in Christ and that you want to live for Him from now on. It is not a promise never to sin again. It is not a promise that you won't ever make mistakes. It is not even a promise that you won't fall back from time to time. You can't promise that anyway. All you are saying is that you choose Christ as your Lord and that you have every intention of continuing to walk with Him. God doesn't want us to wait for baptism until we are sure we can live a sinless or perfect life. That is not what baptism is all about. Quote: Is it God his responsibility to change me? i ve got the will but i don t have the strength to do what is right. Here's the thing we have to understand. It is a bit like the patient needing to do what the doctor says. If the patient doesn't do that and if the patient doesn't check in once in awhile with his doctor, what is going to happen? So, as long as you stay connected with Jesus, and as long as you follow the Great Physicians orders, He will do what is necessary to heal you. It may not happen all at once or in a dramatic way, but over time, if you stay connected and committed to him, I can guarantee that the change will occur!!! "He will do it." It's His promise. All you have to do surrender all of your heart and mind to him. Over time you will see more and more of yourself that you need to give over to Him. I'll be praying for you, TS, and I know others on this forum will be, too. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
True-believer Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 I don't have the strength to continue ............. I feel so torn apart........ help me God to make wise decisions about my journey with you........ i'm praying and seeking God for you truthseeker that you will do what is right before God.......... please keep myself in your prayers that i can try and move on and actually put into practice what i believe once again like i used to............... i feel so hopeless and discouraged and such an idiot, i have become so entangled with doctrine that i have lost what it is all about.......... it is all about JESUS CHRIST WHO GAVE US LIFE.......... and, NO I DON'T BELIEVE IN ETERNAL TORMENT THAT LASTS FOREVER AND EVER, BUT IT WILL BURN FOR AS LONG AS IT NEEDS TO BEFORE IT IS PERISHED AND NO-MORE. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
BobRyan Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Thanks John, that was a very clear answer once again. So if i am right Jesus sacrifice is the basis on which we can build new lives in him. But what if we come to him, get baptised and all that stuff, and we fail tremendously in keeping his commandments? I am not baptised yet because i don t want to claim to represent God and at the same time make him look awfull by my own bad habits. Is it God his responsibility to change me? i ve got the will but i don t have the strength to do what is right. You know what amazes me, you have been able to live a balanced life in Christ, but as soon as i start to "follow" him i get severely attacked by hostile thoughts and feelings. Then i literally want to scream, start to bite in my hand and come up with very sophisticated theories. The last couple of weeks i ve lived miserably once again. But if i stop living biblically, at least i ve got some rest. I have got two extreme lifestyles. On the one hand i can reject God and feel very empty, or i can follow God and get depressed frustrated ridiculed etc. I don t think i ll ever be okay so i just gave up. Furthermore i am wondering what i ve been fighting so hard for. Today i was thinking about the knowledge of good and evil. The suggestion came up in my mind that God didn t want us to know what is "good" or what is "evil" because God his reignment is evil, and as long as we don t realise that God knows that we won t rebel against him. So rather than blaming the snake we should be thankfull for him. 1. "How long halt you between two opinions. If the Lord is God -- then serve Him!". You must choose. 2. 2Cor 10:4-5 says "The weapons of our warfare are DIVINELY POWERFUL for the tearing down of strongholds and we are taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ" - EVERY time a bad thought STARTS to surface - you instantly pray "I claim the promise of EVERY THOUGHT CAPTIVE to the obedience of Christ" - do not let the thought "dwell" let the promise be there to meet bad thoughts at every door at every window of opportune moment when the thought comes back up. Because this is God's fight not yours. 3. In 2Cor 4:4 we are told that "the god of this world is blinding" the eyes of men. Because of this you have the urgent necessity of starting each day "praying THROUGH" the Ephesians 6 list of the Armor of God. Claming each battle-ready element as "yours" for that day. Don't mess with the "god of this world" - by toying around "with his endless games". You can not pay his games and run his rabbit trails all day -- and think that the Christian life will magically surface. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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