melvin mccarty Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 When we are fully able to comprehend having always been, and omnipresence we can understand the trouble of packaging terms and other matters such as the Son of God, in our heads... Yes Stan and defnding the trinity concept does require some smoke and mirrors and mumbo jumbo.....mel Quote
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I appreciate the instruction for this newbie! ha ha ha he he he ho ho ho. ha ha ha he he he ho ho ho When we talk of God being "One God" this is defendable from scripture Deut.6:4. It says here that Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. It is interesting to compare other scripture to understand this passage. For instance Gen 19:24 where Jehovah had been visiting with Abraham about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Then as the destruction takes place it is recorded "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven". Not withstanding the omnipresence of Jehovah God, it might be seen that the name Jehovah is applied to two different Divine beings. It is also worth comparing Gen. 2: 24, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” The original language uses the same word to describe the union of Adam and Eve as one as is used in Deut. 6:4 when one speaks of One Lord. This appears to be interesting... and yes exciting. ha ha ha he he he ho ho ho!!! (By the way if I have offended anyone I am sorry and it is not my intention in any way. I want to learn and bouncing ideas off of other Christians has been helpful in the past.) Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 28, 2009 HEY JOHN317 THE JEHOVAH WITNESS consider JESUS to be a little god not like GOD the father dgrimm60 So-called "Jehovah's Witnesses" believe that Jesus Christ was a creature, the first creature that the Father made. In their view, then, the Word of John 1: 1 was "a god." That's how they have mistranslated that verse. They believe the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, power, or influence. From their viewpoint, when Jesus walked this earth, he was nothing but a mere mortal and didn't have a divine nature during that time. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Redwood, I have a question for you. Are you dyslexic? I noticed a powerful truth in your note at the end of you post "Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am." It is interesting that dog spelled backwords is God and it would be a powerful concept to have as ones life commandment being "Lord, make me the person my God thinks I am." It is quite possible that this was intentional, I actually like both of the statements, and if it was intentional I got it! HA HA! Again, remember I am still a newbie! Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Woody Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Hey. And you are a good newbie. I am willing to make you an honorary 'oldie'. I like your observation. I had not thought of dog/god. But do like it. Yes, it is good both ways. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I don't want to jump the gun in making you and honorary 'oldie'. Before that can be accomplished ... I wonder if I might ask that you fill in some of your profile so we can know a little about you.? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 28, 2009 Putting my moderators hat on: posts that are off topic will be deleted. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 John317. I am learning and will try to stay on topic. Thanks for the kind reminder. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 28, 2009 Our God is ONE God Yes, we worship one God. We don't worship Gods or gods, which is polytheism. The Father is God. 2 Cor. 1: 2 The Son is God. John 1: 1-3, 18; Titus 2: 13; 2 Peter 1: 1; John 20: 28. The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5: 3-4; 2 Cor. 3: 17 (cf. 2 Cor. 3: 16 & Ex. 34: 34) See Evangelism, pp. 615-617. "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." p. 615. "Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God." "He [Christ] was equal with God, infinit and omnipotent.... He is the eternal, self-existent Son." pp. 615. "The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit." Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51 (1905); Evangelism, p. 617. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Jehovah’s Witnesses uses as one of their key passages Isaiah 43:10&12. Here it says “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Jehovah, therefore Jehovah's Witness)” . But it is interesting that the verse right in between 10 and 12 shares a truth that does not work well with their conclusions. Vs 11 says “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is our Savior (Matt. 1:21) The rest of this 43rd chapter of Isaiah through the 47th chapter seems to show clearly how Jesus is Identified with Jehovah Lord. It is quite revealing. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 John317. These references from EGW are very helpful and to me are a clear confirmation of the biblical concept of the Trinity. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 28, 2009 I was reading today in a Catholic catechism on the Trinity, and found quite a few ideas that aren't supported by the Bible. Of course Catholic theology is only incidentally based on the Bible. For instance, their catechism says that the Holy Spirit is "produced" by the love between the FAther and the Son. And it also says that Jesus Christ was produced from the Father. Those are some of the reasons that Ellen White used the term "heavenly trio" rather than Trinity. The Trinity doctrine carries some baggage, both historical and theological, that we SDAs aren't in harmony with. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 28, 2009 Jehovah’s Witnesses uses as one of their key passages Isaiah 43:10&12. Here it says “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Jehovah, therefore Jehovah's Witness)” . ... I used to attend their Kingdom Halls and their conferences, etc. They asked me to go to door with them but I couldn't because after studying with them for about a year and a half, I found there were too many things I couldn't agree with. Their view of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the main things, but they also have some prophetic interpretations I could never agree to. I enjoyed being with them and had good friends among them, and in some ways I was sorry I couldn't join them. They have a lot of good, very admirable characteristics. Our church and theirs actually have much in common, even in the way we interpret some of the prophecies. I could agree with them on about 75% of their teachings. Did you study their books on the Trinity? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 John317. I have become aquainted with some of their papers and have heard some of their discussions on the topic. Most of my study has been in trying to learn about the biblical presentations of the "three in one" aspect of our God . So to admit to my deficiency no I am not as informed as I should be with their material. I am also very impressed with their commitment to thier church and God. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 28, 2009 I found that almost none of them would read anything about the nature of God that wasn't written and published by their organization. They're told by their leaders not to read anything an "outsider" gives them, and they can get "in trouble" if they're seen reading anything like that. So it's common for their publications to misstate the views of "Trinitarians." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Not Cloned Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I have experienced some of the same things as I have communicated with my friends who were JW. I become more concerned when I see such habits in individuals from my own congregation. They view what others state and think that they should not go beyond what they hear from these "specialists". If they do they are afraid that they might be seen as trouble makers or as uninformed misguided dreamers. I have seen this with this very topic. The Bible is not silent on this topic and can be understood but not without doubts, because God does not always remove all doubts... and therefore we have faith! Quote Put the horse before the cart!
WayneV Posted April 3, 2009 Posted April 3, 2009 Please do not limit our God to a trinity. He is an infinity! Quote WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
Woody Posted April 3, 2009 Posted April 3, 2009 Are you saying that we are ALL Gods ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Not Cloned Posted April 4, 2009 Posted April 4, 2009 WayneV. I understand the concern for limiting God. I am totaly open to the concept that in our eternal approaching unto God that our understanding of Him will be astronomically more. At the same time I am only willing to go as far as He has revealed about himself for us now. In my study of scripture the Three in One picture of God seems to be what He has revealed to us so far for this point in time. Quote Put the horse before the cart!
Moderators Kevin H Posted April 4, 2009 Moderators Posted April 4, 2009 I like how it was presented in college at Atlantic Union College, then I reheard this idea but presented in different language from Jim Fleming. Fleming refers to the Western view of the trinity and the Eastern view of the trinity. As per Fleming's thesis what was taught at AUC was the Eastern view of trinity. God is infinate, and infinity is too big for finite beings to comprehend. Therefore God to be able to communicate with finite is both infinite and finite. In the ancient world the consept of the universe was as a huge egg with the underworld, a waffel earth between the underworld and the heavens and the dome of the heavens and at the point of the egg all reality met and that was El, the top god who was the accumilation of all reality. The Old Testament took this universe but modified it, in the far north instead of that being where all reality accumulated and that that was god, that at the far north on the dome of the heaven is where God who is not a part of creation would transend from the rhelm of infinity beyond the egg shaped universe into the great brightness / darkness of incomprehendable infinity. Fleming discribes this as: To understand the trinity in the old testament picture a mountain where you can't see the top because it's covered with clouds, now the mountain illustration has a weakness in that mountains are usually smaller above the clouds and here what is above the clouds is infinate. But we can not comprehend what is above the clouds and the Hebrews left that to simply "Holy, Holy, Holy" Fleming goes on to say that one of his cologues at Hebrew University, a professor who is a Jewish Rabbi and and one of the worlds leading scholars in Second Temple Judaism says that the consept of the trinity was developed by the second temple Rabbis to discribe the Old Testament consept of experenceing God to Greek thining westerners. Judaism gave up the doctrine of the trinity durring the second century AD when there was the Church - Synogogue split. Fleming says that the western view of the trinity was produced by the Synogogu taking half of the old Jewish doctrine of the trinity and the Church taking the other half. But the Eastern view is closer to the original Jewish view. Getting back to AUC: We have the infinite God too big for us to comprehend. To have relationship with finite beings God is also (from the days of eternaty past) not only infinite but also inside of finity. Now how does the infinite God teach finite creatures about God? The first thing was to let the creatures know that God is God, the creator, the lawgiver, the infintie power the great point of sepperation between the finite world and the vast bright, deep darkness if infinity, the one angels need to veil their faces before; or God the Father. But if this was all there was to God, God would be too scary, and fear is not of faith and what ever is not of faith is sin and the universe would be destroyed. To only have God the Father is necessary but insufficient. Created beings also needs to know about God's infinite closeness and love and friendship with them, that God is not only the great power but also one of us. So we have God the Son. To the angels he was another angel, Michael. To Abraham and others in the Old Testament he presented as another human being. To the beings on the other planets this aspecit of God probably presented as one of them. C. S. Lewis was corect to have a planet of talking animals to have this aspect of God appear as a talking lion. This was until he took on one last form that he will keep for the rest of eternity, that of the human Jesus, thus tieing humans to God is a very special way. Now if this was all there was of God's manifestation, it would be easy to think that God was only another created being who's ideas were as good as anyone else. Creaturs would look to themselves instead of trusting in God and again this is sin and would destroy the universe. We need both God the Father and God the son. They are both necessary but insufficient. But even the two are insuficient, as these are only objective revelations of God. We all expirence things differntly. No two of us even hear the same sermon in church but we all take to the evidenc our subjective expirence. So God also has to reveal God's self in working with our subjective; the Holy Spirit. If it was only the Holy Spirit we would again just be trusing our subjective instead of the definate objective facts about God, so this would again be sin and distroy the universe. Only having the trinity is both necessarly and sufficient (Notice I did NOT say complete as God is so much bigger than the trinity, these are only 3 finite manifestations of the one infinite God) As Fleming would say it, the trinity would be like the different slopes of the mountin that we can expirence below the cloud. The issues of the great controversy are three lies that Satan says about God, and each are towards a menber of the trinity. The first is that God is a cruel arbatary tyrant who has no right to place a law over us, which attacks God the Father. The second is that if God is God if anyone sincs justice destroys mercy, God has to get you, attacking the aspect of God the Son, and the third is that mercy destroys justice, that the law has been done away with, attacking the Holy Spirit who leads our life into conformaty with God. The exodus 20 version of the 10 commandaments can be broken into 3 thirds. The first third consists of 3 commands about God as the infinate ruler of the universe, or God the Father. The last third consists of 6 commands on how to love our neighbor as our selves, or how the Holy Spirit will change our lives. The middle third is one commandment that teaches us that the only way we can love God supreamly and our neighbor as our selves is by resting in a friendship with God. The three beasts of Revelation are the three aspects of the trinity but instead of being a oneness, they are either independent of each other or cooperating for their own selfish purposes in contrast of the self sacrificing oneness in the trinity. We need the trinity to prepare for the events of Satan's 3 deceptions and the application of the issues of the 3 beasts in the last days. Now when the Adventist poineers had trinity as only an optional doctrin which was not a very popular option, we ended up preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of gilboa. If we make less of the trinity we usually end up having God the Father being all there is to God. This leads to us being so law focused that we become as dry as the hills of gilboa. It causes the Jehovah's Witness to just accept what their leaders say and limits their thinking for themselves. Emphesses on God the Father leads to harshness and controling. This is one of Satan's goals. Truth is only in the oneness and self sacrificing love that we can find in the trinity. Quote
WayneV Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 Are you saying that we are ALL Gods ? I do not know how you perceived that out of what I wrote, but I will roll with it! The answer to your question is no, that is not what I was saying. I was saying that "Trinity" is a limiting concept, and God is so much greater than what we can understand, that it is not good to limit Him by applying such terminology in description of Him. On the other hand, I do believe that God the Father is fully Divine. I also believe that Jesus, His Son, is fully Divine. In addition, I believe the Holy Spirit to be fully Divine. Nowhere did I reference humanity in my statement. Quote WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
WayneV Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 WayneV. I understand the concern for limiting God. I am totaly open to the concept that in our eternal approaching unto God that our understanding of Him will be astronomically more. At the same time I am only willing to go as far as He has revealed about himself for us now. In my study of scripture the Three in One picture of God seems to be what He has revealed to us so far for this point in time. Has God not also revealed that He is more than we can comprehend and understand in our finite humanity? Quote WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
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