Anita Renfroe says this:

[Gail]

Quote from Anita Renfroe –

Quote:

“Because God has created you so uniquely and intricately, you have a ‘Designer Label’ no matter what you wear.”

Yep! You are special!

[Robert]

Quote from Anita Renfroe –

Quote:

“Because God has created you so uniquely and intricately, you have a ‘Designer Label’ no matter what you wear.”

Yep! You are special!

Yes, we are special. God loves sinners...folks who hate Him, more than Himself. The cross proves this...but, (and I know I will get into trouble for this....) God didn't create us.

[Gail]

LOL Okay, I'll bite. Would you like to expound on that a bit?

[Robert]

LOL Okay, I'll bite. Would you like to expound on that a bit?

But you are a Miata buddy and so there's no fishing here....

Let me give you the context and see if you can see what I'm stating here. And not just Gail, but anyone!

First the problem: If God created me...if God put me in my mother's womb then God is responsible for sin because the Bible clearly states that we are sinful (selfish) from conception (see Ps 51:5 for example). We are a product of the fall and that's not God's doing.

So here's the verse that I promised (Stan let me use a bigger font):

Ps 139:13 For You [God] formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.

Now this is where most folks stop. They say, "look, God created me in my mother's womb - end of story!" Ahhh, but not so fast. While I agree that God created the process of procreation when He created Adam and Eve, He didn't create you the individual when your mother conceived you. Then when?

14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. 15 My subtance was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained {for me,} When as yet there was not one of them.

[Gail]

I have no problem with what you have quoted. It clearly speaks to me of God's omniscience. But I don't see that as making God responsible for sin.

God was working within the human framework- the frail, sinful human framework. But I like to say that nothing fazes God. In spite of the material He's working with, He can make great things of the situation.

As the potter works with a lump to make a work of art, God can glorify Himself through any one of us. All He needs is for us to say, Okay, Lord- I am willing!

[Robert]

15 My subtance was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth

Verse 15 is a direct link to Genesis 1:26

Then God said (on the sixth day), "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness"

Gen 2:7

then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground [the earth], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

God made you when He made Adam!!! So God actually created you perfect "in Adam". When Adam fell, you also fell because you were in him. That's why Paul says:

Romans 5:18 Then as one man's trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.

19 For as by one man's disobedience the many [i.e., "all"] were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous [future tense - glorification].

[Gail]

I see where you're going with this. Anyone else have a thought to add?

[Robert]

I don't see that as making God responsible for sin.

God was working within the human framework- the frail, sinful human framework.

But God doesn't create imperfection or sin....If God creates us in our fallen condition I can blame God for all sin. I can say, "God, you created me this way it's your fault....You are responsible for sin not Satan"

Rob

[Gail]

You mean like blaming one's parents for the ills of one's life.

I could do that if I chose, but I view things differently (and that's okay!)

I don't mesh sin up with God. The creation is groaning under sin and we are included in that (Romans 8:22,23)

In spite of that I still have dignity, remembering my heritage in the Creation. My hope is in the Lord :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Gail

I don't see that as making God responsible for sin.

God was working within the human framework- the frail, sinful human framework.

But God doesn't create imperfection or sin....If God creates us in our fallen condition I can blame God for all sin. I can say, "God, you created me this way it's your fault....You are responsible for sin not Satan"

Rob

But God created Adam and Adam was perfect, yet he sinned. God wasn't responsible for the sinning.

[Robert]

YES my dad got my mom pregnant and I was formed

No, that's the way you come out of Adam. Adam means "humanity"! Check this out:

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man [mankind], in the likeness of God made he him [humanity was perfectly reflecting its Creator]; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created [i.e., the 6th day]. 3 And Adam [the individual] lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness [i.e., after the fall - no longer in the likeness of God], after his image; and called his name Seth...

God made you when He made Adam. Even Eve came from Adam symbolized by his rib (meaning a part of him). Hence "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh."

God created your unformed substance from the earth...the dust of the ground. He did this when He created Adam. Adam is simply not one man, but all men were created in Him on the 6th day:

Acts 17:27 From one man he [God] created [past tense] all men throughout the whole earth.

Through procreation you come out of Adam and became an individual. But because your substance is fallen...because you were saturated with iniquity in your mother's womb, you stand condemned because you share Adam's fallen life. This God did not create! Hence your need of Christ!

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But God doesn't create imperfection or sin....If God creates us in our fallen condition I can blame God for all sin. I can say, "God, you created me this way it's your fault....You are responsible for sin not Satan"

Rob [/quote']

But God created Adam and Adam was perfect, yet he sinned. God wasn't responsible for the sinning.

Right....God made Adam perfect! And your material...your form...your substance...your life....your DNA was "in him". Hence God created you perfect, not in your mother, but in Adam. Even the process of procreation was perfect. But remember Adam and Eve didn't have children until after the fall. So the only thing they could pass on to us is a life that had sinned and and life in slavery to sin (selfishness).

Our self-worth must come from who we are "in Christ", not what we inherit from Adam. "In Adam" there's nothing good, but "in Christ" we are sitting in heavenly places by faith. That's good news.

[Bravus]

People, Robert's threadjacks only work because we let them.

Gail has brought an interesting idea and perspective, and I for one, much as I like and respect Rob, would like to see this thread be used to explore that idea, rather than descend into one more multipage circular argument about sin and how everything is fallen.

So: I agree with Anita. Clothes don't make the man or woman - God does. We're each amazing in ourselves, because God made us that way. Fallen, yes, but unique, and partaking of God's beauty and creative power.

There are at least 4 other people on Facebook who share my name, but none of them are at all like me. There may be people around the world who look like me, but none of them are like me either. I'm the only person exactly like me that God ever made or will make.

And that means something.

[Robert]

Gail has brought an interesting idea and perspective, and I for one, much as I like and respect Rob, would like to see this thread be used to explore that idea, rather than descend into one more multipage circular argument about sin and how everything is fallen.

Okay....that's all for me....Continue.

Rob

[Bravus]

Thank you sir. You're a gentleman and a scholar.

[Joe_in_RP]

Quote:

“Because God has created you so uniquely and intricately, you have a ‘Designer Label’ no matter what you wear.”

People have known that about me for a long time.