Second commandment

[Just*]

The second commandment forbids the worship of the true God by images or similitudes. Many heathen nations claimed that their images were mere figures or symbols by which the Deity was worshiped, but God has declared such worship to be sin. The attempt to represent the Eternal One by material objects would lower man's conception of God. The mind, turned away from the infinite perfection of Jehovah, would be attracted to the creature rather than to the Creator. And as his conceptions of God were lowered, so would man become degraded. {PP 306.1}

The people desired some image to represent God, and to go before them in the place of Moses. God had given no manner of similitude of Himself, and He had prohibited any material representation for such a purpose. The mighty miracles in Egypt and at the Red Sea were designed to establish faith in Him as the invisible, all-powerful Helper of Israel, the only true God. And the desire for some visible manifestation of His presence had been granted in the pillar of cloud and of fire that guided their hosts, and in the revealing of His glory upon Mount Sinai. But with the cloud of the Presence still before them, they turned back in their hearts to the idolatry of Egypt, and represented the glory of the invisible God by the similitude of an ox! {PP 315.}

Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness--the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host--but it was He who gave the law to Israel. [sEE APPENDIX, NOTE 7.] Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts of His Father's law. It was He who gave to Moses the law engraved upon the tables of stone. {PP 366.}

Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Deut 4:15-16

Who has given the Law? . They did not see whose image, when received the Law?

Why we use images of Christ,

breaking the second commandment?

[Just*]

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Why we use images of Christ,

You have images of your family? Your mom, kid perhaps? I would fit that into the same category. Nobody worships their picture of Jesus.

[Just*]

"God had given no manner of similitude of Himself, and He had prohibited any material representation for such a purpose."РР316

"All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's Substitute and Surety. These holy men of old held communion with the Saviour who was to come to our world in human flesh; and some of them talked with Christ and heavenly angels face to face." {PP 366.}

Why did not use images of Christ if saw? Why do we use?

[Lutz13]

"God had given no manner of similitude of Himself, and He had prohibited any material representation for such a purpose."РР316

"All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's Substitute and Surety. These holy men of old held communion with the Saviour who was to come to our world in human flesh; and some of them talked with Christ and heavenly angels face to face." {PP 366.}

Why did not use images of Christ if saw? Why do we use?

There are people who love to draw pictures. Someone drew what they thought Christ would look like. I see no crime. Ellen White also has lots of pictures of Jesus in her own books.

[Just*]

"The artist may do his best to represent the things his eyes have never seen, but his representations are so far beneath the reality that I am pained as I behold them. Neither God nor heaven nor Christ, who is the image of the Father, can be truly represented by the art of man. If the Lord had thought it advisable to represent Christ in this way, His person would

have been described in the writings of the apostle. {PM 219.5}

In the words of the disciple John, Christ is presented before us: [John 1:1-14 quoted]. {PM 220.1}

Christ is to be all and in all to the believer. There must be none of self, and all of Christ, whose we are by creation and by redemption. The Holy Spirit takes the most attractive excellencies of the One who is altogether lovely, and presents them in such a way as to engage the attention and receive the best attention of the renewed heart. God designs that the Holy Spirit shall keep before the mind's eye scenes that will attract and absorb all there is of the newborn soul. We need not any external representations of the person of Christ. The imagination must take in the only begotten of the Father, "full of grace and truth," the One altogether lovely and the chiefest among ten thousand.-- MS 131, 1899." {PM 220.2}

[Just*]

"God can make pictures upon the mind's eye more beautiful and correct than can be made by the greatest artist who has ever presented to the world a representation of heavenly things."--Lt 137, 1899. {PM 219.4}

Holy Spirit or the artist?

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

[Lutz13]

"God can make pictures upon the mind's eye more beautiful and correct than can be made by the greatest artist who has ever presented to the world a representation of heavenly things."--Lt 137, 1899. {PM 219.4}

Holy Spirit or the artist?

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

I can't say my friend. I would suggest praying. I see no harm in a picture. If I were to kiss it and bow down to it, then that is another story.

[Planey]

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Seems funny to use a quotation from Galatians (which is Paul's most overt letter denouncing legalism) to support a thread idea which is at its centre completely legalistic! (Where are you, Robert?)

Graeme

[Just*]

...to support a thread idea which is at its centre completely legalistic!

Graeme

Why?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Just*

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Seems funny to use a quotation from Galatians (which is Paul's most overt letter denouncing legalism) to support a thread idea which is at its centre completely legalistic! (Where are you, Robert?)

Graeme

Why is it legalistic?

If we were to adopt this principle to be saved, as some type of works, then it would be legalistic.

But if it were to be adopted out of a love for Christ and as a desire to honor and please Him the best we can, then it is not legalistic.

Having standards and principles are not legalism, if they are done out of a pure conscience and desire to please God, are they?

Mark :-)

[Just*]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 3:5-6

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:1-2

The just shall live by faith. Rom 1:17

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: Gal 2:20

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Phil 2:13

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:14

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Jn 3:21

----------------

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. Ex 24:3

and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. Ex 24:7 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:3

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mt 19:16

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jn 6:28

-------

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Jn 15:5

[Planey]

You would feel right at home with our Muslim friends.

They not only do not approve pictorial representations of Jesus but forbid realistic (or otherwise!) portrayals of any living thing in any form (picture, carving, sculpture) in their mosques.

Hence the spectacular geometric art in plces such as the Alhambra.

Graeme

[Twilight]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 3:5-6

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:1-2

The just shall live by faith. Rom 1:17

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: Gal 2:20

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Phil 2:13

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:14

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Jn 3:21

----------------

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. Ex 24:3

and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. Ex 24:7 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:3

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mt 19:16

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jn 6:28

-------

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Jn 15:5

A good response...

Mark

[Just*]

You would feel right at home with our Muslim friends.

They not only do not approve pictorial representations of Jesus but forbid realistic (or otherwise!) portrayals of any living thing in any form (picture, carving, sculpture) in their mosques.

Hence the spectacular geometric art in plces such as the Alhambra.

Graeme

I speak only about images of Christ...

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1 Pet 1:8

[Gail]

Great discussion- keep it up! :)

[Just*]

"Should we not make investigation in regard to the matter of illustrating our books so largely? Would not the mind have clearer, more perfect ideas of angels, of Christ, of all spiritual things, if no pictures were made to represent heavenly things? Many of the pictures made are grossly false as far as truth is concerned. Do not pictures so far removed from the truth give voice to falsehoods? We want to be true in all our representations of Jesus Christ. But many of the miserable daubs put into our books and papers are an imposition on the public."--Letter 145, 1899. {CW 171.2}

[Stewart (SDA)]

"Should we not make investigation in regard to the matter of illustrating our books so largely? Would not the mind have clearer, more perfect ideas of angels, of Christ, of all spiritual things, if no pictures were made to represent heavenly things? Many of the pictures made are grossly false as far as truth is concerned. Do not pictures so far removed from the truth give voice to falsehoods? We want to be true in all our representations of Jesus Christ. But many of the miserable daubs put into our books and papers are an imposition on the public."--Letter 145, 1899. {CW 171.2}

I appreciate the quotes you have posted Just, and agree very much with the tenor of your postings on this subject.

Over the years I have seen various videos etc., attempting to show Jesus and the the events of His life.

But for me, every one of them has been terribly disappointing (to say the least). Like you, the second commandment has often rung in my ears... 'you shall not make any likeness of anything in heaven....'. And who among us would doubt that Jesus is in heaven.

People seem so well meaning and sincere in their efforts to represent His tone, looks, emphasis and manner, but in my opinion they ALL misrepresent Jesus. No matter how sincere and well meaning we are, to present a false Jesus is no small matter.

No man spake as He spake.

Thankyou for the posts Just.

Regards,

Stewart.

[Just*]

Thankyou for the posts Just.

Regards,

Stewart.

Thanks for understanding! Stewart

"The psalmist describes the effect produced upon the worshiper by the adoration of idols. He says, "They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 115:8. It is a law of the human mind that by beholding we become changed. Man will rise no higher than his conceptions of truth, purity, and holiness. If the mind is never exalted above the level of humanity, if it is not uplifted by faith to contemplate infinite wisdom and love, the man will be constantly sinking lower and lower. {PP 91.2}

Why He everywhere different? The Chameleon?

To whom is it necessary?

Someone is not pleasant here this true:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8

Excuse me for my bad English.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Just*

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Seems funny to use a quotation from Galatians (which is Paul's most overt letter denouncing legalism) to support a thread idea which is at its centre completely legalistic! (Where are you, Robert?)

Graeme

[Stewart (SDA)]

"The psalmist describes the effect produced upon the worshiper by the adoration of idols. He says, "They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 115:8. It is a law of the human mind that by beholding we become changed. Man will rise no higher than his conceptions of truth, purity, and holiness. If the mind is never exalted above the level of humanity, if it is not uplifted by faith to contemplate infinite wisdom and love, the man will be constantly sinking lower and lower. {PP 91.2}

Why He everywhere different? The Chameleon?

To whom is it necessary?

Someone is not pleasant here this true:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8

Excuse me for my bad English.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind..."

Matthew 13:47

The Gospel net brings "every kind" into the church, both good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant... Of course this is inevitable, and as I'm sure you are aware, we must not look for a separating until the very end. This will not be our work. God bless and keep you.

Regards,

Stewart.

[Just*]

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind..."

Matthew 13:47

The Gospel net brings "every kind" into the church, both good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant... Of course this is inevitable, and as I'm sure you are aware, we must not look for a separating until the very end. This will not be our work. God bless and keep you.

Regards,

Stewart.

I agree.

[Just*]

The second commandment prohibits man from worshiping the true God through any creature or image. It forbids the making of any image which man might try to liken to the Creator. It forbids the making of an image of any creature to represent God or to be

associated in any way with the worship of God. {2SAT 181.7}

[isaiah 40:18-28, quoted.] {2SAT 182.1}

The Lord urges His supremacy. But Satan well knows that the worship of the living God elevates, ennobles, and exalts a nation. He knows that idol-worship does not elevate, but that it degrades man's ideas, by associating with worship that which is base and corrupt. He is at work constantly to draw the mind away from the only true and living God. He leads men to give honor and glory to objects that human hands have made or to soulless creatures that God has created. The Egyptians and other heathen nations had many strange gods--creatures of their own fanciful imagination. {2SAT 182.2}

The Jews, after their long captivity, would not make any image. The image on the Roman ensign or banner, they called an abomination, especially when these emblems were placed in a prominent place for them to respect. Such respect they regarded as a violation of the second commandment. When the Roman ensign was set up in the holy place in the temple, they looked upon it as an abomination. {2SAT 182.3}

To make an image of God dishonors Him. No one should bring into service the power of imagination to worship that which belittles God in the mind and associates Him with common things.

Those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth. They must exercise living faith. Their worship will then be controlled not by the imagination, but by genuine faith. {2SAT 184.5}

Let men worship and serve the Lord God, and Him only. Let not selfish pride be lifted up and served as a god. Let not money be made a god. If sensuality is not kept under the control of the higher powers of the mind, base passion will rule the being. Anything that is made the subject of undue thought and admiration, absorbing the mind, is a god chosen before the Lord. God is a searcher of the heart. He distinguishes between true heart-service and idolatry. {2SAT 185.1}

[Just*]

"The men of that generation were not all, in the fullest acceptation of the term, idolaters. Many professed to be worshipers of God. They claimed that their idols were representations of the Deity, and that through them the people could obtain a clearer conception of the divine Being. This class were foremost in rejecting the preaching of Noah. As they endeavored to represent God by material objects, their minds were blinded to His majesty and power; they ceased to realize the holiness of His character, or the sacred, unchanging nature of His requirements. As sin became general, it appeared less and less sinful, and they finally declared that the divine law was no longer in force; that it was contrary to the character of God to punish transgression; and they denied that His judgments were to be visited upon the earth. Had the men of that generation obeyed the divine law, they would have recognized the voice of God in the warning of His servant; but their minds had become so blinded by rejection of light that they really believed Noah's message to be a delusion. {PP 95.3}

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Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Deut 4:15-16