urgent question

[Guest truthseeker007]

This morning i was reading the great controversy. But i red something that is very disturbing to me. EGW said that we should be perfectly spotless at the return of Jesus Christ as he leaves the holy of holiest. She actually says that from that moment we cease to have an advocate. There are some practical and biblical arguments to say that this statement cannot be true.

First of all, after Jesus leaves the holy of holiest, then each case has been decided. Hypothetically, what would happen then with somebody who has been given eternal life in the investigative Judgement, and then suddenly commits a sin?

Secondly, none of us can become perfect, not even with the help of the holy spirit. Only Jesus could live a sinless life. We should focus on him. Ellen White literally says that we have our destiny in our own hands. This creates an attitude in which people will look only at themselves as if they are able to save themselves, whereas we should all focus on him, then we become changed automatically and we don t have anything to boast about, because our own works cannot save us.

Thirdly, the bible says that we have a high priest, and if we sin we have an advocate. According to Ms White we don t have an advocate anymore in the endtimes....

I am Not saying that EGW is a true prophetess, nor that she is a false prophet. But please, somebody in here (John?), help me out here to make this issue clear. I mean, if Miss White is right, we will all end up in hell because none of us is perfect...

[Gerr]

Will somebody please move this to the theology or what SDAs believe section so we can reply to it?

[Gerr]

Quote:

First of all, after Jesus leaves the holy of holiest, then each case has been decided. Hypothetically, what would happen then with somebody who has been given eternal life in the investigative Judgement, and then suddenly commits a sin?

Read 1 Jn 3:6-9. How could a person who would rather die than commit a known sin, who has been sealed for eternity, now decide to commit sin?

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Secondly, none of us can become perfect, not even with the help of the holy spirit.

Read Jude 24.

Quote:

Only Jesus could live a sinless life.

Now please read those two passages again. Perfection in the ultimate sense is a divine quality alone. You and I are accountable for WILLFUL/DELIBERATE acts alone.

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We should focus on him.

That is the only way we can keep from choosing to sin.

Quote:

Thirdly, the bible says that we have a high priest, and if we sin we have an advocate. According to Ms White we don t have an advocate anymore in the endtimes....

If you have been hauled to court for a crime, tried and acquitted, when you leave the court do you still need the lawyer?

[Guest truthseeker007]

"How could a person who would rather die than commit a known sin, who has been sealed for eternity, now decide to commit sin?"

Often i commit a sin without even realising it, it has become a habit. You sound like you believe it is possible to become perfect in all ways. Even if i look at a woman i am committing a sin according to Jesus. This is just an example. Are you assured that you in your sinfull nature won t do anything wrong? I believe that if God s people get their new bodies, only then will the sin be totally erased out of their nature.

"You and I are accountable for WILLFUL/DELIBERATE acts alone"

Without the shedding of blood their cannot be forgiveness. This includes sinning by accident. If jesus stops to plead for us with his blood and we make a mistake, we cannot be forgiven. If you are right, and it doesn t matter if we sin as long we don t know it, then the world would be better off without the bible, then nobody knows they are sinning

"If you have been hauled to court for a crime, tried and acquitted, when you leave the court do you still need the lawyer?"

This is exactly my point. We don t need a lawyer anymore as long as the judge is no harsh despot. I mean according to Ellen White we should be perfect, what if sin accidently?a wrong thought or something like that?Then according to Ellen White we are going to hell! So to answer your question, it depends on the kind of judge we have and according to Ellen White we have a very strict judge!

You know what the central difference is between my viewpoints and yours? I believe sinning is the result of a wrong character, it is a state of nature. When you suggest we can be perfect in all our ways then you must define sin as an act.

[Gail]

TS, Jesus is our help always. It is only in Him that we have this hope.

The more you look to Him, the less you will be looking at the world. He is in the business of saving souls and He knows how to do it. We all need to trust Him every day. If every day is too big, then as often during the day as we need to we can call upon Him.

[Tom Wetmore]

A helpful book to read on this is Morris Vendon's book Never Without an Intercessor - The Good News About the Judgment.

Key to this dilemma is Jesus' own promise just before he ascended to heaven, "I will be with you to the very end of the World." There is no gap in time in that promise where we are left without. Jesus finishes his work in heaven and immediately comes to get us. No more waiting. How long does it take him to get from heaven to here? Consider the prayer of Daniel and how long it took the angel to get from God's side to Daniel's side - literally minutes.

Hebrews 7:24-25 says, "Because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." This strongly suggests that Jesus priestly role on our behalf does not end. Jesus mediation on our behalf is permanent and never ending, because he lives forever.

[BobRyan]

In Revelation 15 we are told about the heavenly sanctuary service shutting down. And with it - Christ's ministry as our High Priest.

Then follows Rev 16 and the 7 last plagues. Hmmm just as SDA doctrine teaches. (not really that much of a surprise then - eh?).

notice that in Rev 15 the statement is made that the Sanctuary in heaven has to be shut down so that the 7 bowls of the wrath of God can be poured out.

This makes perfect sense given the 1Tim 2:5 statement that Christ now stands in His ministry in heaven as "the One Mediator between God and Man" - and Ellen White's statement that the wrath of God can not be poured out upon mankind while Christ continues that mediatorial role.

So anyway -- that is the Bible and Ellen White on this topic.

in Christ,

Bob

[Haldog]

.... I mean, if Miss White is right, we will all end up in hell because none of us is perfect...

And that is exactly what the devil had in mind when he put those thoughts in her mind and guided her every pen stroke. Jesus never expected us to be sin-free.

The bible teaches to believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord. It is that simple, and you are saved.

Praise God!!

[Gail]

The Bible refers to perfection also as completion or wholeness. I have a feeling that God's idea of perfect is different than ours!

But in any case, the Bible would not tease us and put a carrot in front of us when it is totally impossible.

Jesus came to save sinners. If you are a sinner, that means YOU.

We need to trust in His salvation and not limit Him with our narrow-mindedness or lack of faith.

Whatever I am lacking as far as spirituality goes, I will trust in the merits of the blood of our Saviour. I will leave the rest to Him.

[Twilight]

"How could a person who would rather die than commit a known sin, who has been sealed for eternity, now decide to commit sin?"

Often i commit a sin without even realising it, it has become a habit. You sound like you believe it is possible to become perfect in all ways. Even if i look at a woman i am committing a sin according to Jesus. This is just an example. Are you assured that you in your sinfull nature won t do anything wrong? I believe that if God s people get their new bodies, only then will the sin be totally erased out of their nature.

"You and I are accountable for WILLFUL/DELIBERATE acts alone"

Without the shedding of blood their cannot be forgiveness. This includes sinning by accident. If jesus stops to plead for us with his blood and we make a mistake, we cannot be forgiven. If you are right, and it doesn t matter if we sin as long we don t know it, then the world would be better off without the bible, then nobody knows they are sinning

"If you have been hauled to court for a crime, tried and acquitted, when you leave the court do you still need the lawyer?"

This is exactly my point. We don t need a lawyer anymore as long as the judge is no harsh despot. I mean according to Ellen White we should be perfect, what if sin accidently?a wrong thought or something like that?Then according to Ellen White we are going to hell! So to answer your question, it depends on the kind of judge we have and according to Ellen White we have a very strict judge!

You know what the central difference is between my viewpoints and yours? I believe sinning is the result of a wrong character, it is a state of nature. When you suggest we can be perfect in all our ways then you must define sin as an act.

You can overcome sin.

You just have to know how and have the faith to act on the knowledge.

I have just started a discussion on how to overcome sin.

:-)

Mark

[Gail]

TS- read Philippians 1:6 and hold on to that promise, for it is for all of us! Pray that promise as it is for you personally, and you will be changed. The soul that is willing and open the Lord will not leave desolate.

[Twilight]

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[Guest truthseeker007]

"And that is exactly what the devil had in mind when he put those thoughts in her mind and guided her every pen stroke. Jesus never expected us to be sin-free.

The bible teaches to believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord. It is that simple, and you are saved."

Haldog do you really believe that Miss White worked for the devil? Are you seventh day adventist?

There are some clear examples in which Miss White talks nonsense, for example she said that wearing a hat would make people mad, and other kind of nonsense.

Maybe she is also wrong about the stuff she says about perfection. I mean she contradicts herself when on another occasion she says that everybody who denies he is a sinner, doesn t know the truth and is not in Christ, for we are all sinners. How then can we confess we are still sinners if we have reached the ultimate state of perfection?

I am really stuck here. I wish Ellen just sticked to the biblical interpretation of bible prophecy without giving her own twist on it. But maybe i am too critical, i don t know.

[Gerr]

Quote:

There are some clear examples in which Miss White talks nonsense, for example she said that wearing a hat would make people mad, and other kind of nonsense.

I have never heard of this before; would you kindly give the reference? Thanks.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"God would now have his people adopt the Reform Dress, not only to distinguish them from the world as his peculiar people, but because a reform in dress is essential to physical and mental health" (p. 525).

[Gail]

"God would now have his people adopt the Reform Dress, not only to distinguish them from the world as his peculiar people, but because a reform in dress is essential to physical and mental health" (p. 525).

If I'm not mistaken she would have been talking about the dresses worn in that era. They were corsets and hooped skirts. The corsets were constricting to breathing and the hooped skirts would drag along on the ground, heavy and dirty.

EGW spoke out against this, against popular styles that were actually unhealthy.

[Twilight]

"And that is exactly what the devil had in mind when he put those thoughts in her mind and guided her every pen stroke. Jesus never expected us to be sin-free.

The bible teaches to believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord. It is that simple, and you are saved."

Haldog do you really believe that Miss White worked for the devil? Are you seventh day adventist?

There are some clear examples in which Miss White talks nonsense, for example she said that wearing a hat would make people mad, and other kind of nonsense.

Maybe she is also wrong about the stuff she says about perfection. I mean she contradicts herself when on another occasion she says that everybody who denies he is a sinner, doesn t know the truth and is not in Christ, for we are all sinners. How then can we confess we are still sinners if we have reached the ultimate state of perfection?

I am really stuck here. I wish Ellen just sticked to the biblical interpretation of bible prophecy without giving her own twist on it. But maybe i am too critical, i don t know.

Just take your time here my friend.

What might appear muddy now will clear through careful study.

We are to test the writings of Ellen White against the Word.

I used to think that many things were a contradiction, but I soon found that it was my understanding that was wrong.

If we pray and wrestle with God for the understanding, He will give it to us.

God bless,

Mark