Are the seventh day adventists the 144000

[Guest truthseeker007]

I recently heared David Gates speak about the 144000. He said that they will live together with God and follow him everywhere he goes. That s awesome. Therefore the church should be purified and loyal to God by having the faith of Jesus and keeping the commandments of God. There are also geusts for this wedding, they must be other Christians who are not as faithfull as the 144000. What do you think about all this?

By the way, i am glad that there is a people in which i feel home. Not everybody is Okay, but in general i am very pleased to have received so many truths and i can talk about it with you people. Today i lost 1000 euros on the stock market, at first i got angry and suddenly all those thoughts came into my mind that God didn t exist, that i should care about myself etcetera. But now, afterwards, i thank God for this experience. Jesus said we should collect treasures in heaven where nobody can touch them. he also said that the heithen follow the lust of collecting earthly treasures. A couple of days ago i felt so peacefull, so great, so pure, really like the holy spirit was inside of me, and geuss what, i totally didn t feel any need of having any posessions at all. as long as i ve got clothes and food and God close to me, that s more important than anything else in this world. I believe that a lot of people don t realise that they are slaves by their own lust for money and pleasure. And i thank God for showing me my character, i should never be disobedient to God, no matter how hard the situation. I don t even deserve to live, so i have no right to get angry with God for things i don t receive. In fact, everything i receive i didn t deserve! Anyway i also would like to know whether there are people here that see people different when they have had an experience of conversion. I mean, i can see that i have become totally different and i don t wanna be like the rest anymore. Is that just me?

[phkrause]

I believe that the 144,000, TS, are a symbolic number, and just after these verses look at verses 9-12 of revelation 7.

pk

[David-Kingsley]

According to Ellen White the 144,000 are the remaining living saints during Jesus' second coming (after the great tribulation and the seven plagues, etc.), and is not a symbolic but a literal number.

However, it is important to be aware of that the 144,000 are not the only ones who will be saved, these are only the first fruits, which Elijah's translation to Heaven without facing death symbolizes (Moses' death and resurrection symbolizes the resurrected saints).

Also, as Ellen White pleads with her angel to let her remain in a "bright and glorious" world, the angel tells her that she together with the 144,000 will "have the privelege of viewing all the handiwork of God" (notice the term applied here: "together with" and not "one of").

[Guest truthseeker007]

David i disagree with you. Everything in revelations is symbolic. Furthermore the 144000 are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Of course this is symbolic, then shouldn t the 144000 also be symbolic? Walter Veith, Doug Batchelor are all saying that it is symbolic.

[oldsailor29]

144,000 is a symbolic number for the martyrs. John turns to see them, and sees the great multitude which cannot be numbered.

[Guest truthseeker007]

No sailor, John sees two different groups!

[Dr. Shane]

I think I read some place that the Jehovah Witnesses are the 144,000. Or at least they think they are.

[Guest truthseeker007]

VI. A Symbolic Number?

It is now quite clear that the 144,000 must be understood in a symbolic way rather than in a literal way.

The immediate context is clearly symbolic (7:1-3) mentioning the four corners of the world, the four winds of the earth, sea, earth, trees, and the seal of God. But also the extended context, namely Rev 6 is largely symbolic, for instance, the apocalyptic riders and the martyrs under the altar. The parallel passage in 14:1-5 must be understood symbolically. It tells us that the 144,000 "have not defiled themselves with women." They are "virgins" and follow the "Lamb." The group does not consist of unmarried men only. The term "woman" is a symbol in Rev as is the term "Lamb." Therefore, symbolic language is also to be expected for 7:4-8. The number is symbolic—12 times 12 times 1,000—and points to the fullness of the people of God. The enumeration of tribes is very unusual. The tribe Dan is missing, whereas Manasses should already be contained in Joseph. Ephraim is not mentioned, however, Levi is counted.[17] Judah is found in the first place and Benjamin in the last, forming a parenthesis which encompasses the tribes of the Northern Kingdom.[18] Such a list is not found elsewhere in Scripture. Most of the twelve tribes no longer exist today. Therefore, it is hardly possible to find 144,000 literal Israelites according to their tribes as listed in Rev 7 forming God's end time people. However, the NT knows descendants of Abraham that are not literal descendants (Rom 4:11-12) as well as a spiritual Israel (Rom 2:28-29; Gal 6:16).

Conclusion

Scripture portrays the 144,000 as God's special end time church. According to Rev 7 they are able "to stand" when Jesus returns. They are called "first fruits" which indicates that a larger harvest will be gathered and that they are not the only ones to be saved. Since they have followed the Lamb wherever it went and since they have not joined false worship they will be with Jesus on Mt. Zion and before the throne of God in his heavenly sanctuary. We may not be able to solve all the questions related to the 144,000 and probably this is not so important either. More important is to live in such a way that we may be counted among them.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Doug BAchelor says that there are two groups. The literal 144000 endtime apostles chosen by God and their fruits (the great multitude). I think this interpretation is the most reasonable...

[oldsailor29]

I think the great multitude are the 144,000, because they are all wearing the white robes of the martyrs. So we have different opinions, but that's all right.

[Dr. Rich]

The SDA church are the Kingdom of Heaven as found in Matthew 25. They are the servants of the bride and the five wise will help get the bride ready (from all nations and races) during the time of trouble. The 144,000 are the bond servants for the groom--the few found in Rev. 3:4 and Rev. 14:1-5 who have been sealed prior to the time of trouble and come out of the SDA church. They wake up the SDA church (the ten virgins) when Jesus comes to seal them (the coming like a thief which is not the same as the coming in the clouds).

The great multitude standing before the throne are those who come out of the time of trouble who have made themselves rightous by the acts of the saints (the 5 wise and the 144k). So you have it just like what God told us the Atonement would be like. First to become sanctified is the high priest (Jesus). Second are the Priests (the 144k). Third are the Kingdom of Heaven or spiritual Israel (the 5 wise virgins) and last are those out of the whole world--the Bride.

Please show me where this is wrong. Thanks

Dr. Rich

[Nan]

I do not think we can call any church/denomination the Kingdom of Heaven. (if you doubt that I am sure many could show individual SDA or other churches where there are many ructions.)

The Kingdom of Heaven is made up of individuals who have accepted Jesus - no one will be

there on a 'block booking'.

[Dr. Rich]

Here is why the SDA church is NOW the Kingdom of Heaven:

1. They got their start around 1843, the time given in Dan. 8:14 for the Rock cut out w/o hands found in Dan. 2. (The time was right--they just didn't know the real reason.)

2. Matthew 21:43 (all of Matthew 20 and 21) show that there are to be three Kingdom of Heavens. The first was Israel taken out of bondage. the second is found in Dan. 9:24, and they NEVER did get rid of sin and they did not accept Jesus as their King. The third is the Rock cut out w/o hands and gets their start in 1843.

3. They are the Ten Virgins as found in Matthew 24 and 25. They come out of all of the other religions and form their own. (They come from the bride).

4. They think Jesus is going to come and He doesn't and they ALL fall asleep. (They call this the great dissapointment and hardly anyone knows who they are--they thought they were the bride.)

5. Jesus delays His coming because NO ONE is ready (who has the truth).

6. They are the ONLY group who profess to keep all ten of the commandments--as found in Rev. 12:17.

7. The message to the 7 churches found in Rev. 2 and 3 are messages to this group who are now the Kingdom of Heaven.

8. The first message God finds that 'they' put to test those that call themselves apostles and find that they are false apostles. A Sabbath School study group in Calimesa California SDA church did just that and found that Paul and James (who called themselves apostles) are false according to the test found in John 14:26.

9. The fourth message (Thyatira) finds that God says He has this against them--that they TOLERATE the woman 'Jezebel' --- who teaches and leads His Bond Servants astray. This woman is Ellen G. White who the SDA church still TOLERATES even tho most know that her so called visions were not true.

10. The fifth is Sardis which is a 'template' for the ten virgins. But there are a 'few' (verse 4) that are not sleeping and they then become the 144,000 who are also 'Philidelphia'.

11. The sixth is Philadelphia which is the same as the few in Rev. 3:4.

12. The seventh is Laodicea who is the Kingdom of Heaven (not the world) who think they know everything and are in need of nothing because the follow EGW and Paul's gospel into falsly thinking all they need is love, grace and faith.

And there you go--(There is much more, but this is it in a nutshell).

Blessings, Dr. Rich

[Guest truthseeker007]

i believe the 144k are endtime-apostles, and the great multitude is their fruit. It s that simple. Just like Christianity began with twelve apostles, so it will close with 144k apostles. God will choose them so the devil doesn t know who to persecute among the saints.

[Nan]

Perhaps we are merely disagreeing on semantics.

I have no problem identifying the SDA church having special significance in these times.

I do have a problem with the implication that to be a nominal part of the SDA church implies membership of the Kingdom of Heaven.

I also have a problem with another implication that those not part of the SDA church are not part of the Kingdom.

My original assertion remains - everyone in the Kingdom in heaven will be there because of acceptance of what Christ did for and in them.....not because of church membership.

My apologies if this is misrepresenting your intent Dr Rich, but I feel it is easy to read these implications into your statements.

[phkrause]

I definitely believe its a symbolic number but a literal event. I do believe they represent the people that are alive and are sealed at the time that Jesus returns, but its not going to be exactly 144,000!

pk

[True-believer]

Here is why the SDA church is NOW the Kingdom of Heaven:

1. They got their start around 1843, the time given in Dan. 8:14 for the Rock cut out w/o hands found in Dan. 2. (The time was right--they just didn't know the real reason.)

The Bible also says that we shouldn't put dates and times on Jesus 2nd Coming, and that is what the sda church has done throughout their history as a "Church".

2. Matthew 21:43 (all of Matthew 20 and 21) show that there are to be three Kingdom of Heavens. The first was Israel taken out of bondage. the second is found in Dan. 9:24, and they NEVER did get rid of sin and they did not accept Jesus as their King. The third is the Rock cut out w/o hands and gets their start in 1843.

Matthew 21:43 is only talking to the chief priests and Pharisees--verse 45. We shouldn't just assume it is to us--we have to read it in context.

3. They are the Ten Virgins as found in Matthew 24 and 25. They come out of all of the other religions and form their own. (They come from the bride).

Speaking of the true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ who were ready at Christ's Return and the false believers who were not ready at Christ's Return.

4. They think Jesus is going to come and He doesn't and they ALL fall asleep. (They call this the great dissapointment and hardly anyone knows who they are--they thought they were the bride.)

The bride consists of all true believers in Jesus Christ and not believers.

5. Jesus delays His coming because NO ONE is ready (who has the truth).

No one knows when Jesus will return.

6. They are the ONLY group who profess to keep all ten of the commandments--as found in Rev. 12:17.

I know of lots of Christians who profess to keep all the commandments--and not only sda's, but many other Christian Denominations as well do profess to keep all the commandments.

7. The message to the 7 churches found in Rev. 2 and 3 are messages to this group who are now the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within you--Jesus says--remember--all those who are sincerely in love with Jesus for a relationship and not a religion.

8. The first message God finds that 'they' put to test those that call themselves apostles and find that they are false apostles. A Sabbath School study group in Calimesa California SDA church did just that and found that Paul and James (who called themselves apostles) are false according to the test found in John 14:26.

Paul and James are true Apostles of the Lord, especially Paul--he has written most of the New Testament... this Sabbath School must be false if they condemn both Paul and James.

9. The fourth message (Thyatira) finds that God says He has this against them--that they TOLERATE the woman 'Jezebel' --- who teaches and leads His Bond Servants astray. This woman is Ellen G. White who the SDA church still TOLERATES even tho most know that her so called visions were not true.

Ellen White is only a Christian who is one of the founders of the sda church and not a prophet--she never once stated herself that she is a prophet--people have done that... also the fourth message is one that the Reformed SDA's would push and not mainstream SDA's.

10. The fifth is Sardis which is a 'template' for the ten virgins. But there are a 'few' (verse 4) that are not sleeping and they then become the 144,000 who are also 'Philidelphia'.

144,000 is Jews and they are all virgins--never touched a women--please read it for yourselves--it says those exact words. --this is literal.

11. The sixth is Philadelphia which is the same as the few in Rev. 3:4.

same as number 10.

12. The seventh is Laodicea who is the Kingdom of Heaven (not the world) who think they know everything and are in need of nothing because the follow EGW and Paul's gospel into falsly thinking all they need is love, grace and faith.

Paul is in the Bible, Ellen White is not, all we need is love, grace and faith, and hope, the Kingdom of God is within you --Jesus says in His gospels.

And there you go--(There is much more, but this is it in a nutshell).

Yes, there is much more, but this will do for now.

Blessings, Dr. Rich

Blessings, True-believer

[True-believer]

My comments are underneath Dr Rich comments in the box.

[fccool]

Quote:

Here is why the SDA church is NOW the Kingdom of Heaven:

1. They got their start around 1843, the time given in Dan. 8:14 for the Rock cut out w/o hands found in Dan. 2. (The time was right--they just didn't know the real reason.)

The rock cut out without human hands does not refer to a church. It is a reference to Christ coming to destroy all of the kingdoms and establish His own. While I could agree that there is a spiritual kingdom of heaven today, it is not belongs solely to Adventist church alone.

Quote:

2. Matthew 21:43 (all of Matthew 20 and 21) show that there are to be three Kingdom of Heavens. The first was Israel taken out of bondage. the second is found in Dan. 9:24, and they NEVER did get rid of sin and they did not accept Jesus as their King. The third is the Rock cut out w/o hands and gets their start in 1843.

The rock cut out without hands does not refer to church for the following reason... The church does not destroy the statue, in fact it suffers from being persecuted by the statue. The rock comes back to strike it and to establish the everlasting kingdom... which is POST the destruction of the kingdoms, NOT prior. That's why it could not begin in 1843 as you suppose it did.

Quote:

3. They are the Ten Virgins as found in Matthew 24 and 25. They come out of all of the other religions and form their own. (They come from the bride).

I think you misunderstand the parable of 10 virgins. There's nothing in it that even hints that virgins came of other religions to form their own. There were the once who were ready and diligently prepared for the bridegroom, and the other s did not prepare and begged from some oil from the ones that did.

Quote:

4. They think Jesus is going to come and He doesn't and they ALL fall asleep. (They call this the great dissapointment and hardly anyone knows who they are--they thought they were the bride.)

5. Jesus delays His coming because NO ONE is ready (who has the truth).

JESUS DID NOT DELAY HIS COMING! It's kind of ludicrous to think that God did not know what's going to happen and He's just sitting and waiting on us to get our act straight. The flood came on time, just like the second coming will come on time. God knew when it will be from the beginning of creation. He does not delay this important event... that's why it will come suddenly, like a thief in the night, when people say "peace and prosperity".

Quote:

6. They are the ONLY group who profess to keep all ten of the commandments--as found in Rev. 12:17.

Once again NOT TRUE. Look up

1) Jews

2) Below is the link for about a 100 Sabbath keeping churches and denominations

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/sabbathkeepingchurches.html http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/sabbathkeepingchurches.html

SDA Church got the Sabbath truth from Seventh Day Baptists, so it's not THE ONLY church to claim to keep all of the 10 commandments.

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7. The message to the 7 churches found in Rev. 2 and 3 are messages to this group who are now the Kingdom of Heaven.

NO INDICATION OF THAT AT ALL!

Quote:

8. The first message God finds that 'they' put to test those that call themselves apostles and find that they are false apostles. A Sabbath School study group in Calimesa California SDA church did just that and found that Paul and James (who called themselves apostles) are false according to the test found in John 14:26.

The verse that you describe above is not a test. Biblically, Apostle is a messanger of God. Look up Hebrews 3, in which Jesus is called an apostle:

1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

Both James and Paul were messengers of God with a mission for the early church and WERE RECOGNIZED SO BY OTHER DISCIPLES. So, you can't call these two false, when they've passed the peer review .

Quote:

9. The fourth message (Thyatira) finds that God says He has this against them--that they TOLERATE the woman 'Jezebel' --- who teaches and leads His Bond Servants astray. This woman is Ellen G. White who the SDA church still TOLERATES even tho most know that her so called visions were not true.

Although E.G. White does have untrue things that she stated/written down, it nevertheless in NO WAY a reference to her. Study historical Jezebel, and 7 churches, which were ACTUAL CHURCHES OF THE TIME, and which symbolize the type of things to come.

Quote:

10. The fifth is Sardis which is a 'template' for the ten virgins. But there are a 'few' (verse 4) that are not sleeping and they then become the 144,000 who are also 'Philidelphia'.

11. The sixth is Philadelphia which is the same as the few in Rev. 3:4.

12. The seventh is Laodicea who is the Kingdom of Heaven (not the world) who think they know everything and are in need of nothing because the follow EGW and Paul's gospel into falsly thinking all they need is love, grace and faith.

And there you go--(There is much more, but this is it in a nutshell).

Blessings, Dr. Rich

I guess I will go in a bit greater detail to show you that Paul is recognized as apostle by the rest of Jesus disciples.

1) Luke most likely wrote the ACTS OF THE APOSTLES, where you see this interesting passage:

16'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;

Here, Jesus is speaking to Paul. Past that, as you carefully read through Act, you will see that other disciples respect Paul's authority in spiritual matters, which goes to show that they likewise trust his status as apostle - God's messenger. You can easily deduce it from the Bible.

Although you can not deduce E.G.White from the Bible, it's really an individual decision... which is in no way related to salvation... especially if you follow Christ, and not a denomination or a prophet.

[True-believer]

well put fccool, I tried to do that with the post I did--but it didn't turn out the way you did it.

what went wrong with my post???

why couldn't I seperate each one and comment under each one like fccool.

[fccool]

you just have to use the following format

quoted text

your reply

quoted text

your reply

and so on

[Robert]

Quote:

Are the seventh day adventists the 144000?

Absolutely not! The 144,000 is future....

[Stan]

So why is this in townhall?