Old testament vs New testament God

[flameon88]

the same old question of how do you reconcile the old testament "stern" God and the NT loving God?

any articles, sermons or opinions to share? thanks!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

the same old question of how do you reconcile the old testament "stern" God and the NT loving God?

any articles, sermons or opinions to share? thanks!

Hey Flameon, we're currently discussing this very topic in the thread called "Worship the Creator not the Destroyer." if you wish to join in.

[Woody]

A great resource is Alden Thompsen's book. I forget the name at the moment and am not home to find mine.

[oldsailor29]

A great resource is Alden Thompsen's book. I forget the name at the moment and am not home to find mine.

Would that be "Inspiration?" That is a very important book, and one of the few which describe very accurately how divine inspiration works.

[Lutz13]

A great resource is Alden Thompsen's book. I forget the name at the moment and am not home to find mine.

Who's Afraid of the Old Testament God. That one? I think I saw another one too.

[Lutz13]

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these Chap and ver does not sound like a stern GOD

but a loving GOD to me

Well, what about...

"So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."(2 Kings 2:24) Why didn't he just pray for the youngsters? I know the answer. "you do not know what manner of spirit you are of."(Luke 9:55) They wanted to use Elijah's tactics, and were rebuked.

"And you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king.[hang them] Only its spoil and its cattle you shall take as booty for yourselves. Lay an ambush for the city behind it."(Joshua 8:2) So, God told Joshua to go in kill everyone and steal their stuff...

[BobRyan]

the same old question of how do you reconcile the old testament "stern" God and the NT loving God?

any articles, sermons or opinions to share? thanks!

Sure.

In the NT the SAME God who "Does not change" will raise up all the wicked that He killed in the OT -- and kill them again.

Only this time in the torment and suffering of the lake of fire according to scripture in Rev 20 -- (as recorded by the Disciple whom Christ loved -- the one that tells us "God Is love").

Same God.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Sure.

In the NT the SAME God who "Does not change" will raise up all the wicked that He killed in the OT -- and kill them again.

Only this time in the torment and suffering of the lake of fire according to scripture in Rev 20 -- (as recorded by the Disciple whom Christ loved -- the one that tells us "God Is love").

Same God.

in Christ,

Bob

Sweet! You mean that jerk who cut me off yesterday gets to die twice? SWEET!!!!

[Lutz13]

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HEY LUTZ13

GOD will destroy the wicked who do not want to accept

HIM as their Savior and Lord of their lifes

but for the people who will accept GOD as their Savior

and Lord of their lives GOD loves and shows mercy to them...

in MAL Chap 3 ver 6 says I am the LORD I do not change

in HEB Chap 13 ver 8 says JESUS CHRIST the same yesterday,

today, and forever...

dgrimm60

Right...And just like Bob said. My enemies get to die twice. How sweet is that?

[Lutz13]

I do not really believe that, people will destroy themselves. But we have gone this circle about ten times now. And I am getting dizzy.

[Dr. Rich]

Here is the thing: God never changes. Period! He is the same God and He will destroy the world again. If you do not understand this then you have some research to do in the book of Revelation.

Here is the problem: Paul's gospel makes it sound that God changed because no one could keep the law (the ten commandments as found in Rom. 10:4). Jesus NEVER taught this. Paul's words are the same as what the snake (Satan) told Eve. Basically that it is impossible to obey God but don't worry because God is so full of love and grace that He will not kill you anyway.

Jesus told us that He sowed good seed and Satan would sow bad seed and no one would know the difference between the wheat and tares until just before the end--and then only the bond servants of God. Well, I am pointing out that those who follow Paul are the tares because of the seeds Satan planted in the New Testament.

You see, Paul thought Jesus' death was the 'Atonement' but it actually was the Passover--and the lamb at the passover never was killed to cleanse anyone's sin. This is the bottom line!

Blessings, Dr. Rich

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Here is the thing: God never changes. Period! He is the same God and He will destroy the world again. If you do not understand this then you have some research to do in the book of Revelation.

Here is the problem: Paul's gospel makes it sound that God changed because no one could keep the law (the ten commandments as found in Rom. 10:4). Jesus NEVER taught this. Paul's words are the same as what the snake (Satan) told Eve. Basically that it is impossible to obey God but don't worry because God is so full of love and grace that He will not kill you anyway.

Jesus told us that He sowed good seed and Satan would sow bad seed and no one would know the difference between the wheat and tares until just before the end--and then only the bond servants of God. Well, I am pointing out that those who follow Paul are the tares because of the seeds Satan planted in the New Testament.

You see, Paul thought Jesus' death was the 'Atonement' but it actually was the Passover--and the lamb at the passover never was killed to cleanse anyone's sin. This is the bottom line!

Blessings, Dr. Rich

I would suggest re-reading what Paul wrote. "And consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, and also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some thing hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."(2 Peter 3:15-16)

Your statement above makes it clear that your word is not the bottom line.

[Dr. Rich]

Peter did NOT (I repeat) did NOT write 1st and 2nd Peter. Please do some research and you will find that the writing methoud here is not what Peter would write. Many people wrote in the name of Peter so they could have their writings read by others. Serious Bible Students know that it was impossible for Peter to write these books. Mark wrote for Peter and so did Clementine. Peter was not a writer and did not even know how to write.

Blessings, Dr. Rich

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Peter did NOT (I repeat) did NOT write 1st and 2nd Peter. Please do some research and you will find that the writing methoud here is not what Peter would write. Many people wrote in the name of Peter so they could have their writings read by others. Serious Bible Students know that it was impossible for Peter to write these books. Mark wrote for Peter and so did Clementine. Peter was not a writer and did not even know how to write.

Blessings, Dr. Rich

Interesting. So what other books and letters should I toss out because your "research" says it is no good?

[Dr. Rich]

Dear Lutz,

Please do your own research. If anything does not agree with what Jesus taught and said and given to us by His eyewitnesses, then it is clearly hightly suspect. We are to test everything with the words of Jesus, for only in Him can we know the truth. It is truth that will make us free from sin--not faith.

The test is found in John 14:26. Only the desciples were told that the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember what Jesus said and told them. His words were what the Father wanted said. Jesus came to testify to the truth---not to die to save the world from their sins. I am just repeating the words of Jesus--I do NOT have a gospel of my own.

Blessings, Dr. Rich

[Lutz13]

Brother, my first reaction was to laugh at what you wrote. I had the laughing icon all ready and was about to submit when God tugged at me and said "No!" So I refrained from doing such a deed.

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Here is the problem: Paul's gospel makes it sound that God changed because no one could keep the law (the ten commandments as found in Rom. 10:4). Jesus NEVER taught this. Paul's words are the same as what the snake (Satan) told Eve. Basically that it is impossible to obey God but don't worry because God is so full of love and grace that He will not kill you anyway.

I do not believe Paul wrote what you are trying to say he wrote. I am not sure how you come to this conclusion. Paul never wrote anything about "once saved always saved". That doctrine is a product of "as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."[(2 Peter 3:16)"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!"(Romans 6:15) We are currently under grace. Grace is a second chance. Man fell shortly after this world was created, a plan of salvation was already ready to go into effect before the fall. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"(Revelation 13:8) "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation for the world'"(Matthew 25:34) "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."(1 Peter 1:20)[see also Ephesians 1:4]

So, before the fall, the gap between God and man was closed through Jesus Christ. What Paul says in his writings is that no way are we able to do anything of our own power. We can only put to death the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit. He doesn't say do what we want because it is impossible for us to follow Gods law. In fact... "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not of the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law."(Galatians 5:16-18) The Spirit and the flesh constantly tug at us, depending on which one we listen to more, the easier it will be to follow that path. He also states that we are not under the law if we walk in the Spirit. Because there are no laws against doing good. However, if we walk in the flesh, we are under law and it condemns us. "Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God"(Galatians 5:21)

The main point of many of his writings are that, no matter how hard we try we cannot follow Gods laws. Only when we surrender to Jesus and put His yoke upon ourselves will we begin to learn how. The bible is our knowledge, and Jesus is our strength. We must put our pride aside and allow Jesus to clean us up and restore us to His image.

[Lutz13]

I do not really believe that, people will destroy themselves. But we have gone this circle about ten times now. And I am getting dizzy.

Just so we are clear on something. Do not think that I am saying that everyone is going to heaven. This is not the case. Everyone will reap what they have sown. If a drunk driver crashes and goes flying over a bridge and dies. The sin that he committed killed him, not God. But since everyone gets a continue, that same drunk is raised up once again. Because he died in his sins, he will raise up sinning. One sin will separate that individual from God. And sin will once again destroy him, just like in his first life.

[Dr. Rich]

Would you agree with me that IF (yes I said IF) Paul was truely being led by Satan, that Satan would have Paul saying nice things too? After all, does not it FEEL good when you do not have to obey the law because of 'grace'? Please show me grace when the 5 foolish virgins tried to get into the wedding feast (Matt. 25). Show me anywhere by the words of Jesus that we are saved by grace.

I know that the words of Jesus are not popular today - just as they were not popular when Jesus told them to the Jews of His day. Well, nothing has changed--has it? 1st John 5:18 proves that one born of the Holy Spirit will NOT have sin and will not sin again.

But Paul says over and over that NO ONE will ever become righteous. I didn't mean to argue here--I am just pointing out things that I have learned and thought others might like to research this issue too. I will agree that Paul's words say one thing and later will say the exact opposit ("May it never be"). "Go Fish?

Dr. Rich

[Robert]

Would you agree with me that IF (yes I said IF) Paul was truely being led by Satan, that Satan would have Paul saying nice things too? After all, does not it FEEL good when you do not have to obey the law because of 'grace'? Dr. Rich

Okay, we have a new enemy of the gospel. You must be opposed. I'll be happy to assist.

Rob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Would you agree with me that IF (yes I said IF) Paul was truely being led by Satan, that Satan would have Paul saying nice things too? After all, does not it FEEL good when you do not have to obey the law because of 'grace'? Please show me grace when the 5 foolish virgins tried to get into the wedding feast (Matt. 25). Show me anywhere by the words of Jesus that we are saved by grace.

I know that the words of Jesus are not popular today - just as they were not popular when Jesus told them to the Jews of His day. Well, nothing has changed--has it? 1st John 5:18 proves that one born of the Holy Spirit will NOT have sin and will not sin again.

But Paul says over and over that NO ONE will ever become righteous. I didn't mean to argue here--I am just pointing out things that I have learned and thought others might like to research this issue too. I will agree that Paul's words say one thing and later will say the exact opposit ("May it never be"). "Go Fish?

Dr. Rich

My faith is in scripture. There was a time when I thought it was all rubbish. I even threw it across the room. God grabbed a hold of me and proved it to be true. You are here trying to lead me away from truth. I will not have it, and I will not even consider the thought that Pauls writings came from Satan.

[Dr. Rich]

And what question 'killed the cat'? What question is it that bothers you? Could it be the one about not finding any grace or faith or love in the Ten Virgin prophecy?

Please note that the 144,000 will have no lie in their mouths and be totally blameless (Rev. 14) and Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 tell us that anyone that practices a lie will not be saved.

I too thru my bible in the trash one time--so I do understand that the truth may hurt. What ever you do, do NOT give up searching for the real truth and trying to answer difficult questions.

Blessings, Dr. Rich

[Robert]

Please note that the 144,000 will have no lie in their mouths and be totally blameless (Rev. 14)

The 144,000 are special group that go through the time of Jacob's trouble. They will experience agape to its fullest, but they won't even realize it. However, this doesn't mean that they are perfect. They still retain a sinful nature, which in itself makes them sinful. They also have a list of sin from the past. The law allows no sin neither does it allow imperfection of the flesh to enter heaven. So there....No matter how good one thinks he is, it's not good enough. Again, the law doesn't accept anything outside of perfection.

FYI

[True-believer]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Would you agree with me that IF (yes I said IF) Paul was truely being led by Satan, that Satan would have Paul saying nice things too? After all, does not it FEEL good when you do not have to obey the law because of 'grace'? Dr. Rich

Okay, we have a new enemy of the gospel. You must be opposed. I'll be happy to assist.

Rob

Apostle Paul----being led by Satan-----garbage!!!

1 Timothy says all Bible writers are inspired by the Holy Spirit---including Paul.

[oldsailor29]

Apostle Paul----being led by Satan-----garbage!!!

1 Timothy says all Bible writers are inspired by the Holy Spirit---including Paul.

2 Timothy 3:16 doesn't say that.    In that writing, Paul was speaking of the canon which was available in the synagogues at that time.    This was the "Law" and the "prophets."    None of the OT books which were categorized as "writings" were included, nor were any of the NT books included in Paul's statement.

However, I do agree that the idea of Paul being led by Satan is garbage.

[oldsailor29]

In any case, the argument about Paul is irrelevant.    Jesus had already established, enacted, and sealed a new covenant.    This new covenant, the Christian covenant, borrows heavily from the Old Testament covenant.    However all of the borrowing which is necessary was done by Jesus.    All seven elements of the ancient Suzerainty covenant are present in the teachings of Jesus.    Christians need to go nowhere else but the quotations of Jesus as recalled by His disciples, to find all the doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction they should follow.    Christians really do need to keep their focus on Jesus.    We can either follow Him to the holy city, or we can follow blind leaders on dead end trails.