If ellen is White, you ll burn in hell

[Guest truthseeker007]

Probably one of the most controversial issues within the SDA church is the investigative judgement. I had another topic, but in a sect-like manner this topic was locked. So i have to start all over again.

Ellen said:

The judgment will show those who are authentic believers in God from those who are not. "All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life." On the other hand, "When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance." "Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God."[54]

The bible says that God keeps cleansing us from all sin, it was not some future event, it happens continuallly. Furthermore we all have unconfessed, forgotten sins. I am not trying to bash the church, i am trying to help the church, i am reaching out, but if the only response i get is that my topics are being locked because it is so controversial, the church makes itself a sect and a miserable people. Please help me. Isn t the investigative judgement about God himself and his people in general, not every person. It is impossible to keep your attention focused when a billion cases of the same results of the uprising are passing the review in the heavenly courts. That is the most stupid thing i ever heard. Please help, and don t lock this topic again, or else i ll leave for good and you have put the burden of millions of people on your shoulder, since i am one of the few able and willing to bring them the pure light.

[Robert]

Look, EGW wasn't perfect in her theology, but she was used of God. Is Billy Graham perfect in his theology, no..not even close. So, while I do not agree with EGW on each and everything, she has much light.

However, EGW is not the measuring stick of truth, the Bible is....Likewise, Dr. Billy Graham isn't either. Would you like me to quote his theological errors?

If you want to pick on SDA, pick on those who make EGW their pope, but I bet I can find other Christians who make Billy their pope.

Rob

[Robert]

So, while I do not agree with EGW on each and everything, she has much light.

Let me give you a great statement that I find no other religious icon stating:

When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” In His divinity Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He had life in Himself to quicken whom He will. [5BC 1113]

[Guest truthseeker007]

Robert, but if you say Ellen White was wrong on the investigative judgement, then shouldn t we correct her? I mean, as it stands right now, nobody gets saved, there is ample grace and all the universe gets to see is how terribly bad we are.

[Robert]

Robert, but if you say Ellen White was wrong on the investigative judgement, then shouldn t we correct her? I mean, as it stands right now, nobody gets saved, there is ample grace and all the universe gets to see is how terribly bad we are.

Here's EGW on the IJ:

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God’s people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. “Are these,” he says, “the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them.” But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” [PK 589]

Tell me where you disagree.

[Guest truthseeker007]

I disagree with the attitude of Miss White when she claims that we can earn our salvation by keeping the commandments perfectly. According to Miss White we are saved if we keep the law, but i believe we are saved through grace by faith. This faith includes the law but it is not a necessary precept for salvation i believe. Of course when you break all the commandments willingly there is no faith and there is no sacrifice for sin. But if we follow Christ through faith in him, no matter how much we sin, Christ should accept us, because then he has judged us according to our hearts and not to some cold law keeping rituals. For instance, you can keep the law perfectly like the Jews did in Jesus time, still there hearts were far from Jesus...

[Guest truthseeker007]

Do you think it is practically possible for satan to accuse everybody at the same time? Do you think God is able to demonstrate all cases before the cases of heaven?That would take millions of years. Rather i believe that the investigative judgement is the judgement of God. He gets judged by the angels and they ll declare he is righteous and just. He needs a judgement to

a. Prove that his law is necessary and just/Satan is wrong

b. To demonstrate to the universe how it is possible he shew so much mercy on fallen mankind and at the same time be righteous

I would go so far as to say that it is almost blasphemy to claim that we are able to live perfect righteous lives and so earn our salvation. This is skipping the issue of being saved through grace.

[Robert]

I disagree with the attitude of Miss White when she claims that we can earn our salvation by keeping the commandments perfectly.

Here's what I've found out about EGW:

Did you know that all unbelievers are legalistic by nature. By nature mankind is always trying to ascend...to better himself...to be # 1. Oh, sure an unbeliever will admit he makes mistakes, but he's not that bad. And so he thinks the so called good things he does can win him heaven...or a place in the after life. Hence, by nature, we are proud...we are legalistic.

When Israel came out of Egypt they were tainted with the Pagan religions. All non-Christian religions believe in salvation by works. Does EGW agree?

"Through heathenism, Satan had for ages turned men away from God; but he won his great triumph in perverting the faith of Israel. By contemplating and worshiping their own conceptions, the heathen had lost a knowledge of God, and had become more and more corrupt. So it was with Israel. The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion; it had now become the principle of the Jewish religion." [DA 35]

So when Israel came out of bondage they did not leave their pagan ways behind them. They were legalistic to the extreme.

That's why God entered the Old Covenant (salvation by works) with Israel. Didn't He know they couldn't keep the law? Yes, but Israel didn't know it ....Hence the Old Covenant was designed, not as a method for salvation, but a tool to open Israel's eyes that "there is none righteous, no, not even one."

But instead of learning from the OC they became even more self-righteous so that when Christ came upon the scene and pointed out their self-righteousness and sin they had Him murdered.

Even today there are two covenants alive and well. The OC still exist for the same reason it did thousands of years ago....To open the eyes of the self-righteous so they might be justified by faith.

My point? Ellen White, like the Bible, presents two covenants. One is based on law and performance; the other is based on Christ's doing and dying.

So if you are inclined to think that you are saved either fully are partially by your works, EGW will give you these OC statements. Why? To put your glory in the dust.

Let's look at a quote where she states this:

What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself [namely save him in Christ]. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. [FLB 111]

The problem is we really don't understand the nature of sin. We think we can keep some rules and God accepts us. But that's a lie. However, many times that's how we come to God and when we do He will give the OC to break us of our self-righteous attitude.

That's why you see statements from EGW like the following:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. [Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 05-07-01]

However, a close examination of EGW's writings will reveal she has the OC in mind in the above quote. How do I known this?

The terms of the “old covenant” were, obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 10-17-07]

[minky]

Leave Elllen White alone, one thing for sure I know she is a woman of God

[Robert]

Leave Elllen White alone, one thing for sure I know she is a woman of God

No! You're not my boss... .We are looking at why EGW has those legalistic statements....There's a reason and it's often misunderstood. Read and learn.

Rob

[Robert]

As to perfection, EGW taught this:

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary; but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

O, that all may see that everything in obedience , in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (MS 50, 1900).

Did you get that? Our best isn't good enough. Even our best has "selfishness" in it. Our best works are polluted with "self" and so Christ has to take our obedience and cover it with His own righteousness so that it will be acceptable to God through His Son's righteousness.

Rob

[Robert]

There is a investigation before Christ comes back. Do you know why?

Rob

[Guest truthseeker007]

"Leave Elllen White alone, one thing for sure I know she is a woman of God"

Thanks Minky, that settles it. LOL. haha,

But seriously, thanks for your contribution Robert, i ll respond later. I have to reread the stuff i just red...

[John317]

Robert, but if you say Ellen White was wrong on the investigative judgement, then shouldn t we correct her? I mean, as it stands right now, nobody gets saved, there is ample grace and all the universe gets to see is how terribly bad we are.

Are you sure you understand the Pre-Advent Judgment and are not judging her by your misunderstanding? That would be like people judging the Bible by their misunderstandings of the Bible.

Have you read l844 Made Simple by Goldstein?

Or The Silencing of Satan, the Gospel of the Investigative Judgment by Bradley Williams?

See: http://www.investigativejudgmentgospel.org/default.htm

How about the Daniel & Revelation Committee Series?

[Guest truthseeker007]

"Did you get that? Our best isn't good enough. Even our best has "selfishness" in it. Our best works are polluted with "self" and so Christ has to take our obedience and cover it with His own righteousness so that it will be acceptable to God through His Son's righteousness."

How do you relate this to the fact that Ellen White said that if we have any unconfessed sins in heaven, no matter how small, we ll not receive everlasting life. OR that if we haven t overcome all our sins in this life we won t be accepted and satan has the right to accuse us? Furthermore i would like an answer to the practical impossibility of judging billions of people in the courts in a time span of a couple hundred years? Who is at the centre of the investigative judgement?us or Christ?

[Guest truthseeker007]

John i recently red Goldstein his book. But he approaches the issue in a very practical matter. He doesn t discuss the ridiculous claims of Ellen White that we must be spotless if we want to be accepted, that we are never assured of salvation, that we should live a miserable life and then at the end of the road expect to end up in hell anyway. If that s good news according to Miss White, my search for truth has been a waste of time.

[Guest truthseeker007]

John i ve not studied the details of the commitee but i know the general outcome. And now they have different theories about the investigative judgement. Just like the matter of the 144000 has been interpreted different by the church over time. I just hate the authority of EG White. I mean, who is she to tell me what the bible says if she doesn t back it up with plain biblical support? She just picks and chooses bible verses that fit properly into the context of those books she plagiarized/borrowed from, and then calls herself a prophetess. I am sorry, it sounds crue, i don t know whether she is a false prophetess or not, but i do understand the frustration that non-adventists and scolars like Desmond Ford have.

[phkrause]

She doesn't have the final say TS. As john has stated if you are misinterperting her, than you should keep yourself to the Bible only. And as I have said EGW just points us to the Bible. So if you have a problem with her than just read the Bible only.

pk

[John317]

As to perfection, EGW taught this:

O, that all may see that everything in obedience , in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (MS 50, 1900).

Did you get that? Our best isn't good enough. Even our best has "selfishness" in it. Our best works are polluted with "self" and so Christ has to take our obedience and cover it with His own righteousness so that it will be acceptable to God through His Son's righteousness.

Of course, Robert.

The IJ is often taught or explained as if people will be saved by their obedience, even though Ellen White and the Bible say over and over that's not true.

The IJ shows who has true, saving faith in Christ and who doesn't. But there's much more involved in the issues than my individual salvation. There's also the peace and safety of the universe at stake. So the IJ also shows that God is right and that He is a God worthy of our trust, love, worship & obedience. It secures the entire universe against sin and rebellion for eternity.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"The IJ shows who has true, saving faith in Christ and who doesn't" So you believe a billion cases will pass the review before the throne of God and each case gets tremendous attention? Wouldn t that be boring, after say 1000 cases? The manifestation of sin may differ, but the core is all the same.

However, maybe there are books written in heaven for all to see in which it shows why we are or are not accepted by Christ.

[John317]

I just hate the authority of EG White. I mean, who is she to tell me what the bible says if she doesn t back it up with plain biblical support? She just picks and chooses bible verses that fit properly into the context of those books she plagiarized/borrowed from, and then calls herself a prophetess. I am sorry, it sounds crue, i don t know whether she is a false prophetess or not...

I would say that at this point in your life, it would probably be counterproductive for you to study what Ellen White teaches about the IJ.

You might want to try Bradley Williams' book because it is based completely on Bible evidence.

I would also like to say, TS, that there are going to be people in heaven who never heard of the IJ, although personally I have found my knowledge of the IJ to be spiritually very helpful.

The bottom line, from my viewpoint, is that you should commit all of your life to Christ, trust in God and keep your mind open and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you through His inspired word.

[John317]

"The IJ shows who has true, saving faith in Christ and who doesn't" So you believe a billion cases will pass the review before the throne of God and each case gets tremendous attention? Wouldn t that be boring, after say 1000 cases? The manifestation of sin may differ, but the core is all the same.

However, maybe there are books written in heaven for all to see in which it shows why we are or are not accepted by Christ.

Of course you're looking at it strictly from the human viewpoint, and they have a much different way of looking at things and also a different reason for looking. You might be looking at them from the entertainment standpoint, whereas they are looking at them in order to see the influence of Christ in the life.

The thing is, also, we don't know the process. We also have no idea how time is measured in heaven. If we have computers, we can be sure that heaven has a way of processing these things in a way that would make our computers look like child's toys. We don't know what their minds are capable of processing and absorbing or how quickly.

Too, there's the fact that God knows everything anyway. So the IJ is not in order for God the Father and Christ to learn anything. The IJ is primarily for the angels and all the many other intelligent beings who God is inviting us to join as neighbors.

[Robert]

"How do you relate this to the fact that Ellen White said that if we have any unconfessed sins in heaven, no matter how small, we ll not receive everlasting life.

Known...I mean known sin! Not because someone in your church tells you that such and such is sin, but because the Holy Spirit is convicting you.

Let's say you know looking at porn is sin (a guy thing), but you have a besetting issue with it and now and then you get pulled in. Is that a practiced known sin? No! But let's say you refuse to acknowledge your sin to God and decide that watching porn is not sin. What then?

Pretty soon nothing you do is sin,in your eyes, and sooner or later you won't need Christ to represent you in Himself. You'll deny Christ your righteousness.

That's the issue....

[Guest truthseeker007]

John i always keep an open mind. The reason that i have come so far in collecting truths is because i put opposites against each other. So sometimes i play the devil s advocate while i have not made a decision on that particular matter.

The general implications of the works plus law-keeping gospel of Ellen White as described in her interpretation of the investigative judgement is that the church is cold. It is not a lovely place to be, your salvation is not assured, You should be thankfull to yourself for having become such a good guy with the power of God if you make it, but probably you ll end up in hell because Jesus is looking for a little mistake to accuse us in a satanic way to deny us the entrance to heaven. This is not good news! This is the reason why, although this church has so many truths, there are only about 16 million members. We wouldn t have need an outpouring of the holy spirit in the end days if the spirit of our protestant ancestors were present in this church. Maybe this is not God his endtime church after all.

I suggest you watch and study this video, then realise that if our cases are presented in heaven, we are all terrible sinners and in no case Jesus will say "oh this man kept the law perfectly, he has the right to enter into heaven"

The key question is, are we judged according to our righteousness or Jesus his righteousness? I believe we can only be righteous in Jesus. As long as we remain in Jesus. Then Jesus decides who is in him, and who is not.

[Robert]

Here's why I see that there's an IJ:

You see God's law says, "The soul that sins it must die"

So when God justifies you in His Son, Satan doesn't like it. In fact he challenges God on it. Satan accuses God of favoritism. He says, "You know that believers are not sinless and even your own law states that they must die. You have no right to take them to heaven."

So there's an IJ because there's an accuser. He states that God doesn't have a right to take you to heaven because His own law says you must die.

How does God deal with this?

He examines the fruits of the believer, but not to see how good he is, but to see if those fruits come from a faith based relationship with Christ.

If you believe in salvation by works then you believe in a false gospel. The fruits you bear will be self-righteous....They will be pretend fruit. In the IJ such fruit will prove that that person's faith in Christ was a sham. Once that is established God can't present such a person in the robe of Christ's righteousness. He will have to stand before God's law in his own righteousness.