Tower of Babel

[wayfinder]

In this English translation of the Septuagint (which of course was copied from Hebrew into Greek) the translators say the first creatures created were reptilian and flying creatures. Then after the creation of the Adama (earthman) the words "And God formed yet farther out of the earth", clearly the action of this forming occurs after the formation of the Adama, who then gives them all their names. The wild beasts in chp.one are described as reptiles and flying creatures. The wild beasts, which come out of the ground after Adama is placed in the Garden of Paradise, are described as beasts of the field and birds of the sky, the absence of reptiles and flying creatures is interesting.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks for providing this. Also interesting is that the word for the Creator in Gen 1 through Gen 2:2 is "God". The word for the Creator in Gen.2:3- is "The Lord God". Why? Also check out the meaning for the 'breath of God' that was placed into the animals and then do it for the 'breath' that was given to the Adama.

It would fit that Adam was placed into a garden because the rest of the world was evil. God needed to test this man to make sure he would and could rightly testify to the true creator. After all, the war in heaven found in Rev. 12 may have been after the first creation and before the second. Who really knows?

[oldsailor29]

There are two creation stories in genesis because there were two authors. The Elohist authored the first and the Yahwhist authored the second. They were probably compiled by the priestly writers of the Davidic kingdom.

There are two flood stories for the same reason. And there is evidence that there were two different stories of Jacob and Esau.

Some aspects of the second creation story form a mirror image of certain things in the first. This is a literary device often used by bible writers, which is known as a chiasm. In the biblical chiasm, the center emphasized a main point. The center of this chiasm is the creation of the Sabbath, which was at the end of the first creation story.

This means that the author of the second creation story had to be familiar with the first creation story.

I don't see any evidence of or reason to speculate about any other life on earth outside of the garden of Eden, before it was populated by the descendants of Adam and Eve.

[Dr. Shane]

Many Bible scholars believe that Genesis was authored by several authors and that Moses compile the book, rather than writing it. There is no Biblical reason to believe there was an evil world coexisting on Earth with the Garden of Eden. I suppose that is a possibility but there is no Biblical reason for believing that.

[Beryl]

Quote:

So the Bible is not the Word of God after all, just different scribal thoughts and biblical chiasm. I wonder why the Levite scribal priests were so careful when copying the Law that they would not change the Word of G__ because that would be blasphemy!

How did we get our Bible? Is it truly the word of God?

2 Peter 1:19-21 -- "And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Yes, the Bible truly is the word of God given to us by inspired men, writing as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, now available in our own languages.

Thank God for that!

Beryl

[oldsailor29]

So the Bible is not the Word of God after all, just different scribal thoughts and biblical chiasm. I wonder why the Levite scribal, priests were so careful when copying the Law that they would not change the Word of G__ because that would be blasphemy!

Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. Who do you think the Elohists were, and the Yahwhists, the Priestly writers, and the deuteronomists? They were the holy men of God. They were given visions, and they wrote what they were shown in their own words. This is what it means to be a penman. They were God's penmen, not His pens. And their own words became known as the "word of God." So, no, the words spoken and written by God's prophets were not God's words. Whenever they wrote God's actual words, they would say so. God is quoted several times in scripture. Genesis 1:3 quotes, God said, "Let there be light." See how easy that was to separate God's actual words out from the words of the prophet?

I don't know why it is so difficult to see, that the prophets selected words from their own vocabulary and usage. If the Holy Spirit was giving them the words, He would give them all the same words. And there certainly would not be any conflicting information from one to the next.

You think that the Holy Spirit gave Moses the words which said Jacob's name was changed to "Israel" at two different times and places. Didn't happen. This was reported by two different authors who were given visions of it, and spoke or wrote of it in their own words. Which author was inspired by the Holy Spirit? They both were, and it doesn't really matter where or when Jacob's name was changed.

Our faith is strong. We can "rightly divide" the truth when we read the Bible. And when we are not sure of the truth, our faith will see us through.

The fundamentalists should not be discouraged by all the historical critical scholars and higher criticism and studies which try to determine what the scriptures meant to the people who wrote them through exegesis. Until the Holy Spirit shows them otherwise, the fundamentalists should say, "We believe every word in the Bible was dictated by God, but if it isn't, we will believe in Him anyway." Don't allow any Bible study to ever rob you of your faith in God. Hang on to your faith in God, even if it is the only thing you have left. That experience will give a new and powerful meaning to the phrase, "faith alone."

[Dr. Rich]

Oldsailor, perhaps you should try science and archeology,

[wayfinder]

Mt 5:18 (NIV)

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

(Following verses from the Septuagint)

1:26 And God said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

1:27 And God made man, according to the image of God he made him, male and female he made them.

1:26 And God said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

2:18 And the Lord God said, [it is] not good that the man should be alone, let us make for him a help suitable to him.

2:19 And God formed yet farther out of the earth all the wild beasts of the field, and all the birds of the sky, and he brought them to Adam, to see what he would call them, and whatever Adam called any living creature, that was the name of it.

2:20 And Adam gave names to all the cattle and to all the birds of the sky, and to all the wild beasts of the field, but for Adam there was not found a help like to himself.

2:21 And God brought a trance upon Adam, and he slept, and he took one of his ribs, and filled up the flesh instead thereof.

2:22 And God formed the rib which he took from Adam into a woman, and brought her to Adam.

2:23 And Adam said, This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of her husband.

So the explaination for the differences in the Hebrew words used to describe Zakar (male), N@qebah (Female) in chapt. one, were preferred by the Yahwists. The Hebrew words Adam (man) and Ishshah (woman)were preferred by the Elohists, who also did not like the sequence of the Yahwists and preffered to have Adam formed before the plants (planted a garden) and animals (formed yet farther out of the ground) and woman (made from the rib of Adam).

By faith we can explain away the obvious and continue to believe what we want. Faith is made stronger by ignoring or explaining away the evidence which would expose our paradigm as flawed. The more we must defend our faith the stronger our faith becomes, to the point where it is as strong as the faith of the Pharasees. It was the strong faith of the Pharasees, which gave the them the confidence to condemn the Son of God to death.

In the above texts from Genesis, it is clear to me that this information about the creation would not nor could not have originated with Moses; therefore where, or from whom, did it come? All through the Law and Prophets and from Jesus testimony in the Gospels and Revelation, the fact of creation being an act of God is never understated. Why then would God allow scribal preference to obscure the facts of such a significant event?

If the creation account is nothing more then a myth made up by Elohists and Yahwists then indeed we must hope to faith and resign ourselves to the darkness for we will never find nor experience the light of truth.

[Tom Wetmore]

This is a sidetrack topic broken away from the Tower of Babel topic in the Original Thoughts forum.

Tom

[oldsailor29]

Oldsailor, perhaps you should try science and archeology,

[Dr. Rich]

Oldsailor, hemm, then what about Matthew 24:42-51? Isn't this a prophecy? If new information is all hogwash, then why did Jesus tell us about the ONE person that will be 'feeding the fellow servants at the proper time'? Does not 'feeding' mean providing spiritual food for those who are hungry for it? It will be good for this ONE person to be doing that when Jesus come like a thief.

Well now, this couldn't possibly be the coming in the clouds because by that time EVERYONE living will have already made their own choice-the mark of the beast or the truth given by the ONE person feeding them before the time of trouble.

I mean, what good would it do to be feeding truth at the time of the coming in the clouds? I like to converse with people who show some, if only a little, common sense.

[wayfinder]

Simply put, Moses wrote the Law and the information of events and people predating him would have been given by word of God to Moses, the creation account would be one such event. God would have given the sequence and used the proper words to convey the true meaning. It would stand to reason that God was not trying to counter an older pagan creation account, He was simply stating the facts. Now if you are saying that scribes of different persuasions interpreted the original account according to their own prejudices then they would have put those in the Talmud, for to change one word of Torah would be to change the word of God.

I can appreciate your nose for truth, and I can identify with that. God bless you and lead you into all truth.

[oldsailor29]

Oldsailor, hemm, then what about Matthew 24:42-51? Isn't this a prophecy? If new information is all hogwash, then why did Jesus tell us about the ONE person that will be 'feeding the fellow servants at the proper time'? Does not 'feeding' mean providing spiritual food for those who are hungry for it? It will be good for this ONE person to be doing that when Jesus come like a thief.

Well now, this couldn't possibly be the coming in the clouds because by that time EVERYONE living will have already made their own choice-the mark of the beast or the truth given by the ONE person feeding them before the time of trouble.

I mean, what good would it do to be feeding truth at the time of the coming in the clouds? I like to converse with people who show some, if only a little, common sense.

Thank you for giving me credit for just a little common sense.    lol    You are a gentleman and a scholar.    lol

I think spiritual food is the teachings of Jesus, not the interpretations and speculations of men.    I think most interpretations of end time prophecies is hogwash, not the prophecies themselves.    Matthew 24:44 tells us to always be ready, because we do not know when the Lord will return.    And I question the interpretation that "every eye" means everyone living.    I think it is possible that "every eye" means all who are ready, being filled with the Holy Spirit, and having the seal of God, those with spiritual discernment.    This fits well with verse 44, as well as the entire secret rapture scenario.    I think we just do not know, so we have to be ready all the time.

EGW says "the midnight cry" lights our path from behind. This could mean that the light from the midnight cry message will shine until the bridegroom comes.    Jesus is coming soon is the midnight cry.    We need to be full of the Holy Spirit, have our lamps full of oil, which gives us our light and our ability to see.

[Dr. Rich]

Oldsailor, LOL, it's hard to argue with that. But as an investigator, I find verses 48-51 of Matthew 24 very informing. To me, this ONE person has a choice to make-either do what might be the hard thing to do which is to feed the fellow servants new truth, (including information on when Jesus is going to come), when most will make fun of him because the food is totally different than what they have been used to eating, OR to forget about feeding them and join them.

The last verse is what disturbs me the most. Do you see that this ONE person is actually punished FIRST because he does NOT know the day when Jesus is going to come? Here is the thing: IF no one is to actually know the timing of when Jesus is going to come, then tell me, how come this ONE servant gets punished so severely? Maybe the answer lies in Revelation 1:1-3 where the bondservants will read and understand what is written down by John—which includes the timing for Jesus to come. To me, this is important information.

[oldsailor29]

Dr Rich, obviously we have a difference of opinion here, as to what is meant by "meat in due season." You seem to be saying that present truth includes knowledge of the day and hour of the advent. And I think it means other things, because this scripture, Matthew 24:36&42, says no one knows exactly when the bridegroom will come. And the unfaithful servant is not being punished for not knowing, but for not maintaining his house in a state of readiness.

Of course I am willing to learn, and if you do know exactly when the Lord will return, and have related that information to us, I missed it. So would you please be so kind to tell us again, what time and date Jesus will arrive? (mm/dd/yyyy), and then you will have no reason to weep and grind your teeth.

[Dr. Rich]

Oldsailor, I am happy to share my understanding with you. Just as Noah knew the exact day when it was going to rain, so will the 144,000 know when Jesus is going to come in the clouds. Only thing is- God told Noah just 7 days before it happened, so too will the 144,000 fully understand 'at the proper time'. When that proper time will come is during the 1335 just prior to the start of the tribulation (Daniel 12:12) And remember, the tribulation will last 3 and a half years. BTW- It would be hard to compute this if we didn’t have a computer where you could go to a site and check when a new moon will be within 3 to 5 or so days from the fall equinox. The beginning of the ‘time of trouble’ starts when the censor has been cast down (Rev. 8:4) and at the end of the 1335 days of feeding the ‘rest of the bondservants’ (144k).

The bible version I use the most and find the closest to Strong’s Lexicon understanding or interpretation, is the New American Standard Bible. That is the location where I get “food at the proper time”. If you have a copy of the 7 rules for understanding prophecy it might help. Following the rule, do not change the time periods given in prophecy in any way. A day is 24 hours. A week is 7 days and starts on the first day-Sunday. A month is a new moon to another new moon. A year is from the Spring Equinox to the next Spring Equinox. A half year starts at the Spring Equinox and ends at the Fall Equinox.

Therefore, the 3 and a half years starts at the Spring Equinox and ends at the Fall Equinox. The 42 months start at the first new moon after the Spring Equinox and ends at the start of the 43rd new moon.

We know that the Two Witnesses found in Rev. 11 (the judgment chapter) will prophesy for 1260 days and during that time Satan and his demons who have been released from the abyss during the last 5 months (Rev. 9) attempt to kill them but can’t until at the last when they are killed and lie in the streets for 3 and a half days. Then God gives them back the breath of life (they were righteous when they were killed—just as Jesus was righteous when He was killed.) Now you can do your own computing. Just find a time in the future that the fall equinox is about 3 to 7 days after a new moon.

Anyway, this can be done by anyone and you will find that there are some that fit and some that may fit that are in the future. I will not tell you what I came up with, please do your own computing and see what happens. After all, God did not make the months go evenly into a year for a good reason. Enjoy.

[oldsailor29]

Well, you're getting off on the wrong foot, so to speak.    I don't have any reason to believe Noah knew the exact day it was going to start raining.

And my understanding of the 144,000 is also different from yours.

I don't know where your numbers are coming from.    Where does 1335 come from?    I do know about the three and a half days/years.    However, I was taught those years were part of the 2300 day prophecy, which ended in 1844.

If you want to stretch the 2300 day prophecy out to the end of the great controversy, that would be the right way to reinterpret the prophecy, because where it comes from is known.    I think a starting date for a time prophecy needs to be more static than sometime during the 1335, whatever that is.

And the scripture in Matthew 24 about the faithful and wise servant, who is ruler of the household, does not indicate that he knows when the Lord will return.    He is feeding his household the meat in due season even though he doesn't know the day nor the hour of the Lord's return.    He is a wise servant because he is maintaining a state of readiness within his household.    I don't see how the "meat in due season" can be interpreted to mean the day and hour of the Lord's return.

However, I am glad for your testimony, because you have directed my attention to something which the Holy Spirit wants to show me.    I know this is true because it has been brought to my attention again and again.    When I am given the correct interpretation, I will be glad to share it with you.

[Dr. Rich]

Oldsailor, there is so much information that I would love to write here in this 'blog' but I just don't have the room or time for all of it. The 1335 days is found in Daniel 12:12. This is not years--it has to be actual days for a person could NOT wait 1335 years. Oh, and Noah knowing it was going to rain in 7 days, that is found in Gen. 7:4. As for the 3 and a half days, that is found in Rev. 11:9-11.

Here is something to ponder: The Atonement process! First to have his sin cleansed was the High Priest. Only after a successful cleansing by the High Priest could the rest of the Priest Tribe (the Levi tribe) have their sins cleansed. After that was successful, then the who Kingdom of God-the rest of Israel have their sins cleansed. After this, the sins were placed on the horns of the goat of removal and not killed, but sent out into the wilderness (Other Nations of the World). Please get the whole picture of this, for it is the picture of what happens at the end.

Jesus, our High Priest was sanctified first (John) and the next group to become sanctified are the priest tribe—the 144k. After this, the Kingdom of Heaven (the five wise of the ten bridesmaids—aka the SDA Church) become sanctified. Only after this does the rest of the world come in—and that is the bride, the mass multitude (Rev. 7:9-16) that stands before the throne that come OUT of the time of trouble because of the acts of the saints (Rev. 19:8) (the 144k and the 5 wise). Yes, this is something to seriously ponder!