The church will never fall...

[Twilight]

It is often quoted that Ellen White said the Church will "never" fall.

Now is she referring to the "demonination"?

Or to the "true spiritual church"?

Mark.

PS.

I am not sure where the quote is, so if someone knows, please post it.

PPS.

I hope this is the right place for this discussion?

[GreatLakesGramma]

She was referring to the true church, not the denomination.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Also, don't forget that she also said there will be a shaking, and at that time those who have no real connection with God will leave. That includes all those who compromise with falsehood and evil, as well as those whose religion is centered on themselves. Only the true believers will remain, and will be joined by those from other denominations who will have by then become convicted of the truth about the Sabbath.

[Twilight]

HEY TWILIGHT

I think the quote is that the church will go though

to the end

I am not sure were it is found either

dgrimm60

I would love to find it.

Hopefully someone will remember where it is so that it can be viewed in context.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Also, don't forget that she also said there will be a shaking, and at that time those who have no real connection with God will leave. That includes all those who compromise with falsehood and evil, as well as those whose religion is centered on themselves. Only the true believers will remain, and will be joined by those from other denominations who will have by then become convicted of the truth about the Sabbath.

I have heard it presented that the "denomination" will "push out" the true "church" the same way that Jesus and the disciples were "pushed out".

So would love to check the quote.

Is it Adventist myth that the denomination will be surrendered to the "true church"?

That is my question I suppose.

Mark

[Gail]

To add to what Catherine has said:

I have thought much over the years about what it means to have a real Christian experience. I have seen many who were very studious and pious who subsequently became disillusioned and left the jchurch totally. Some join another denomination and some simply became without any faith at all.

That is scary to me. I'd rather that people grow in the power and peace of our Lord and Saviour.

I'm wondering if the balanced experience, one that grows horizontally as well as vertically, will be what takes folks through the challenges and trials that we are promised are coming.

[Gail]

What I mean by a horizontal experience is one that is God working through us to others. It can be service or sacrifice.

I term it thus because study, prayer and obedience bring our focus to our relationship with God personally and directly. That is the vertical.

Service and/or sacrifice for the benefit of others is giving yourself to be used as Jesus' hands on earth. This will also help take our focus off ourselves and give "teeth," if you will, to what we learn with our intellect. It gives the practical experience to what we learn from the Bible. It helps to make our spiritual experience real.

Am I explaining myself clearly? I know what I mean in my own head, but sometimes it doesn't translate well in print.

[Gail]

It could be, dg.

[Gail]

We need growth in both areas. If a person is to an extreme in either mode s/he will become unbalanced, either from lack of knowledge (vertical) or lack of relational experience with his brethren and neighbours.

[BobRyan]

Bible Commentary – Volume 7

(Heb. 12:26, 27; Rev. 12:11; 14:5.) Ordeal of the Sifting Time.--Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. . . . The remnant that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather strength from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amid the surrounding apostasy (Letter 55, 1886). {7BC 911.6}

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...pter04785.htm#1

Quote:

Last Day Events – pg 180-181

The Church May Appear as About to Fall

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter02439.htm

The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.--4T 89 (1876). {LDE 180.1}

Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat.--5T 81 (1882). {LDE 180.2}

Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. . . . {LDE 180.3}

When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882). {LDE 180.4}

The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.--2SM 380 (1886). {LDE 180.5}

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have

181

not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.--GC 608 (1911). {LDE 180.6}

God's Faithful Will Be Revealed

The Lord has faithful servants who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.--5T 80, 81 (1882). {LDE 181.1}

On every occasion that persecution takes place, the witnesses make decisions, either for Christ or against Him. Those who show sympathy for the men wrongly condemned, who are not bitter against them, show their attachment for Christ.--ST Feb. 20, 1901. {LDE 181.2}

Let opposition arise, let bigotry and intolerance again bear sway, let persecution be kindled, and the half-hearted and hypocritical will waver and yield the faith; but the true Christian will stand firm as a rock, his faith stronger, his hope brighter than in days of prosperity.--GC 602 (1911). {LDE 181.3}

New Converts Will Take

the Places of Those Who Leave

Some had been shaken out and left by the way. The careless and indifferent, who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to perseveringly plead and agonize for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their places were immediately filled by others taking hold of the truth and coming into the ranks.--EW 271 (1858). {LDE 182.1}

The broken ranks will be filled up by those represented by Christ as coming in at the eleventh hour. There are many with whom the Spirit of God is striving. The time of God's destructive judgments is the time of mercy for those who [now] have no opportunity to learn what is truth. Tenderly will the Lord look upon them. His heart of mercy is touched, His hand is still stretched out to save, while the door is closed to those who would not enter. Large numbers will be admitted who in these last days hear the truth for the first time.--Letter 103, 1903. {LDE 182.2}

Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God.--8T 41 (1904). {LDE 182.3}

[Bravus]

This is one of those predictions that is unfalsifiable: if some person or body does not go through to the end it is by definition not 'the church'. If one person does - either from the denomination or from some other belief system or... - then that has to be 'the church', since the claim is that 'the church' does not fall.

[phkrause]

Yes I was just thinking the same thing dgrimm.

pk

[phkrause]

pk

[Juanita]

I'm thinking there is another place where Mrs. White talks specifically about the SDA church. I think she says something to the effect that not all SDA's will be saved; but, the SDA church will endure until the 2nd comming. And, that even though the church is not perfect, we should not abandon it. But, I can't find it right now.

So, I think she makes statements about the SDA church specifically and also makes statements about the church as God's people on earth. That makes it easy to get confused about which "church" she is talking about sometimes.

[olger]

Good topic brothers & sistern. Primitive Godliness will also be the hallmark of the remnant - looking forward to that in spite of the cost.

g

[BobRyan]

I'm thinking there is another place where Mrs. White talks specifically about the SDA church. I think she says something to the effect that not all SDA's will be saved; but, the SDA church will endure until the 2nd comming. And, that even though the church is not perfect, we should not abandon it. But, I can't find it right now.

So, I think she makes statements about the SDA church specifically and also makes statements about the church as God's people on earth. That makes it easy to get confused about which "church" she is talking about sometimes.

[Ted Oplinger]

Just remarking in general here...

Israel thought they were the unconquerable people of God...Yet Satan conquered that nation from the inside out as easily as trained warrior could best a mere 6-year old child...

Christ's words to Peter about the church in Matthew 16:18...

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

Make it clear Christ's church will ultimately stand victorious.

The question is, does any one denomination have a claim to this, through the reasoning that since they were set up by God's authority/word, they ultimately must?

OR...

Are these organizations, being but human creations and extensions of human flesh, have the end fate of all other human creations - falling away from God?

The Papal authority loves to use Matthew 16:18 to justify how they will never be conquered by the devil - yet just a perusal of their policies and beliefs indicate they have been more than conquered centuries ago.

It's the Rock Christ builds His church upon that will never see defeat, not any human creation bearing His name. The Lord adds to His church as many as should be saved.

Yes, there are SDA's who will make it to the very end. Also, Catholics, Baptists, etc, etc, etc...

Rolling...

[Musicman1228]

“For behold, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the earth. Amos 9:9.

Before combines harvesting grain was a multi-stage process. The grain was brought in from the field and placed in a sieve, the grain plus stones and pebbles that were mixed in with the grain. Then they would shake the sieve and the grain would fall to the threshing floor, while the stones and pebbles would stay in the sieve.

The house of Israel is the SDA church of today which is the sieve, in which there is good grain but also non-edible material such as pebbles and stones. During the shaking of the church by the presentation of the straight truth as given by the True Witness (the sieve) during the harvest the good grain will be shaken out of the sieve and fall to the threshing room floor. The pebbles represent those that stubbornly hang on to beliefs that are based in lies that they still believe to be true. These pebbles and stones are thrown away. During the next step the chaff is removed by fanning wind across the threshing room floor (the Holy Spirit) which leave nothing but pure grain that is placed in the store house (heaven).

I don't know about you but I want to be shaken out at the end with the good grain because I don't want to be thrown out with the pebbles that are discarded. If the sieve is the church and going through means that I am a pebble that will stay in the church and be thrown away I want to be sifted out with the good grain that will go into the store house after the harvest.

Again, I'm still thinking about this. Any help will be appreciated.

[Bravus]

If not 1 in 1000 SDAs will be saved, there will be an awful lot of disappointed SDAs at the second coming.

(Alternatively, this is just a horrible, smug, elitist doctrine)

[phkrause]

That's interesting dgrimm, and sad to know that we are under 51%.

pk

[Ted Oplinger]

I won't worry too awful much about any shaking, even as harvested wheat/corn/barley don't worry too much about the shaking process.

Unlike earthly harvest practices, where useful grain is often left behind or otherwise left behind in the process, the Lord knows who are His, and will not allow even the least kernel to be left behind in the winnowing process.

When Christ said in John 17 He has all who are His Father's and hasn't lost a single faithful one, faith can bank on that sure fact that Christ will bring His own through the process.

John 17:11, 12

11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

Christ Himself has prayed to the Father that His own be kept and guarded. The only one lost wa the faithless one - Judas, who chose not to include himself in Christ's protection.

More of this thought can be found in John 10 (the sheep hear His voice, and never perish, nor are snatched out of His hand) and Christ's appeal outside of Jerusalem (He would gather her as a hen does her chicks).

The only question is - is the hearer/listener willing to accept this? If so, then there is no worry.

Christ puts His name on the line when He states faith shall not be disappointed, and that He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Yes, we have a part to play in the Divine-Human partnership, but the one who does their part (has faith in God, through faith applies the words (and works) of God in their lives), God will not in any wise forget or neglect to fulfill His part.

He is more eager to do His part than we are to do ours...

Ted

[Dr. Rich]

Ted, Wasn't Jesus praying to His Father in John 17? Wasn't Jesus talking about the 12 disciples--and not anyone else? The words that they would write are the words that Jesus wanted them to write. Jesus prayed for those who would read those words and also have salvation.

Please don't take these words of Jesus given to us by John very lightly. By making His words say that Jesus was thanking His Father for everyone who is going to be saved just can't be right--in my way of thinking anyway.

[Musicman1228]

Ted,

You made the statement that, "Christ puts His name on the line when He states faith shall not be disappointed, and that He is the Author and Finisher of our faith."

This is one of those times when I just can't let this statement go unchallenged. You are misquoting Jesus and putting words in His mouth that He never said. When you do this, even if it is not with malicious intent, there are sever unintended consequences that will come to you even though you are not aware (hopefully) that you are making Jesus into a liar.

Looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, Hebrews 12:2.

Jesus NEVER said that He was the author and finisher of our faith. This was done by the writer of Hebrews, whoever that was.

I have spent some time in trying to find the citations, and I cannot put a name to the person who said that "our faith shall not be disappointed", but it too wasn't said by Jesus Christ. Was either Paul (cannot find a citation), or from EGW? I do not know. It just wasn't from Jesus.

What I see in you is a sincere person that is so wrapped up in proving your position that you are willing to have Jesus say things that He never did in order to make your point. You use the words of others as if they were the words of Jesus as well, putting them by mistake on an equal footing with the Son of God. This is dangerous. You, like many other Christians, want to believe that Jesus is who Paul (and others) said He is, and are unwilling to take Jesus at His own word; that word as given by His own disciples who were eyewitnesses to who He really is.

Jesus never said (in John 10) that if you listen to the voice of the thief and robber that He would save you anyway. Why do you insist that other voices (Paul, EGW, etc.) have the same authority as the Master?

If you listen to the voice of ANYONE other than Jesus Christ you will not be listening to the Good Shepherd, but to an impostor. You can see for yourself by your own misuse of the words of others words saying that they are of Jesus how easily it is to be fooled. If you can be fooled by these words what other words could you be fooled by?

[Juanita]

One thing is true: I am saved through Jesus Christ. And, the faith that I need, it is a gift from Jesus, also.

[Woody]