Robert Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 What I find fascinating about the Bible is that it seems to be full of inconsistencies and contradictions. To me this proves that the human mind cannot understand the Bible without God's Spirit. So, let's look at an interesting contradiction. Go to Ez 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. Clearly if the Father sins the son is not held accountable, right? Now go to Samuel 12:15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. Do you see the contradiction? Quote
Robert Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 HEY ROBERT I don't see any contradictions what about the sins being on the 3rd or 4th generations dgrimm60 Well, that's not part of the context....But, if you include your quote also, it too goes against the Ez quote. Here's the question: Why did the boy infant of David & Bathsheba get the brunt end of David's sin? The child was innocent....David is the one who sinned! Can you explain.... Quote
Robert Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. Okay, here's your quote: I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. Hmmm? More confusion.... Quote
Robert Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 HEY ROBERT but as for as David's son maybe it shows us how terrible sin is dgrimm60 So if you sin and God kills your little kid (assuming you have one) that had no personal sins, that's okay...God is just showing you how terrible sin is.... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 2, 2009 Moderators Posted July 2, 2009 What I find fascinating about the Bible is that it seems to be full of inconsistencies and contradictions. To me this proves that the human mind cannot understand the Bible without God's Spirit. So, let's look at an interesting contradiction. Go to Ez 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. Clearly if the Father sins the son is not held accountable, right? Now go to Samuel 12:15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. Do you see the contradiction? No. It may seem like there's a contradiction here, but the passage clearly says there would be no sharing of "guilt." It does not say there won't be consequences of sin. But consequences of sin is not the same as "guilt." We share the consequences of Adam's sin but not His guilt. The fact that the child died cannot be taken as evidence that it will be lost. God was teaching David and all of us a lesson about the dire consequences of sin. When we sin, there are consequences, even though they may not be obvious at first. Our sin will find us out-- always. Even when they are forgiven, there are consequences. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 It [the passage] does not say there won't be consequences of sin....God was teaching David and all of us a lesson about the dire consequences of sin. Clearly Ez says that the soul who sins it will die. David sinned...but the infant died, not David. That's a contradiction. The closest example can be found in the book of Job. Job had a serious problem because he thought his righteousness was more than God's as EGW eludes to below: When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6. ...There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. Because of Job's self-righteousness God partially abandoned Job. What happened when He did? Just like David, Job's children died: Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the Lord, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." 9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." 12 The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord....18 another messenger came and said, "Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead.... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 2, 2009 Moderators Posted July 2, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 It [the passage] does not say there won't be consequences of sin....God was teaching David and all of us a lesson about the dire consequences of sin. Clearly Ez says that the soul who sins it will die. David sinned...but the infant died, not David. That's a contradiction. Yes, it does seem to be a contradiction but if you take the context of Ezekiel 18 into account, I don't think you will see a real contradiction. God is telling the people that He won't destroy people because of the sins of their parents. He is encouraging the people to understand that it's not in vain that they do right and choose God. The children need not worry that if their parents were great sinners, they won't find grace in God's sight but that they will be held guilty of sins they personally didn't commit. Notice that this was written long after the time of David. It may have been such things as David's child dying as a consequence of David's sin with Bathsheba that made it necessary for God to reveal this teaching to Ezekiel. No doubt the people misunderstood and believed the death was a sign that God held the child guilty of David's crime. As you point out about Job's children, it can be made to seem very unfair indeed for Job's children-- to say nothing of his animals-- to perish on account of God's testing of Job. For Job's children don't die because of Job's sins, but, ironically, because of Job's righteousness. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 Job's children don't die because of Job's sins, but, ironically, because of Job's righteousness. No, they died because of Job's self-righteousness. In Sodom and Gomorrah, children died because of their parents ungodliness, which the Bible defines as turning their backs of on God. So my point in all this comes back to God's passive so called wrath. In Job's case God clearly backed out, but before He did I'm sure God tried everything else. But Job wouldn't give up his self-righteousness so easily and neither would the Jews in the time of Christ. In the case of David "the Lord struck the child". In the case of Job, Satan tells the Lord "stretch out your hand and strike everything he has". Did God actually kill Job's children because of their father's sin (singular)? No. Did God kill David's boy? No. In both cases God removed himself - His protection and His blessing because of persistent sin. Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' Quote
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