Proving the Bible is true and God is REAL

[Lineman]

It seems that our biggest problem when trying to talk with non-believers about Christianity is "proving" that the Bible is true. Our whole existence is based on the truths found in this Book and if a person does not believe what it says then the "circular reasoning" begins. Once we have proven it to be trustworthy we can go from there.

For many years I have thought about how to prove that the Bible is true and I have come to the conclusion that it has to prove itself. It seems to me that there are two totally different ways to do this. We can both prove that the Bible is true and that God is real at the same time through personal experience, and/or by using logic with some deep, time consuming research.

By Logic:

The Book of Isaiah says, "Let them bring [them] forth, and show us what shall happen: let them show the former things, what they [be], that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together. Isaiah 41:22 [Open in Libronix (if available)] , 2 [Open in Libronix (if available)] 3 These verses give us a way to use logic to prove the God is real, thereby proving that the Bible is real. If we can find something that shows "us what shall happen" (aka "prophecy") and "show the former things, what they be" (aka history as proved by archeology and geology) then we will have a "firm foundation" to start with, otherwise they see what we are saying as being "stupid" and "ignorant".

By Personal Experience:

The Book of Malachi says, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Malachi 3:10 [Open in Libronix (if available)] This would necessitated the one who doubts to risk loosing some money, but it also seems to be the fastest and surest way.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to convince them to use this "personal experience" method first? The "logic" method I feel is a little "flawed" in that one could question if the "prophecies" were not written after the fact and only written in a way that makes them look as if they were written thousands of years ago (though the Dead Sea Scrolls answers this question quite well)

BTW, the Dead Sea Scrolls are a very nice "time capsule" Lord! Thanks!

[Lutz13]

The big issue with the Bible for most non-believers is hearing "god is love". Yet most are taught that they will burn in hell for eternity if they do not follow. As SDA's we know this not to be true. However there are still many difficult subjects and issues with the Bible as a whole. Read through the book of Joshua(it is disgusting.) then read any of the Gospels. There is a huge difference. Yet it was supposed to be the same God? I often give up on reading anything in the Old Testament. Things seem to be going well then all of a sudden God goes psycho and flakes out. Yet people call this strange personality love. Which I do not understand how they can make that claim.

Often I want to just throw it away. God never gives up on me though, and still takes care of me. Which means I can't just give up on Him and must find more truth on this matter.

[Lutz13]

HEY LUTZ13

IT may seem that the old testament GOD is harsh

but like any place in the bible you have to read

more than just a few verses maybe whole chapters

but in MAL Chap 3 ver 6 for I am the LORD I change not

old testament

in HEB Chap 13 ver 8 JESUS CHRIST the same yesterday

today and forever new testament

SO if the same GOD AND SAME JESUS change not and or

same yesterday today and forever

then GOD is love in both old and new testament

dgrimm60

The problem with that is actions speak louder than words. Most of what we see in the OT is god killing or ordering people to kill for him. Yet in the new we see Him lifting people up and healing them. Also condemning any actions that lead to death. Such as Him rebuking His disciples when they wanted to bring fire down on those people. Or when Peter drew the sword He said "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" This isn't the same God. Cause god in the ot told them to go in and kill everyone in the cities, and when they couldn't get the job done he would step in and finish them off with giant hail or fire from heaven.

This is the problem. Because most people see that and laugh at the thought of it bearing any truth.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

then when GOD allows Judas to be killed also in the

new testament loving GOD???

If I remember right, Judas killed himself, just like King Saul. Which God said that He killed Him in His wrath.

Quote:

who were the people that GOD allowed to be killed in the

old testament or in the new testament

There are tallies of how many "god" actually killed in the OT. It is around 1.1 million people.

Quote:

it was people that were working against GOD and

would not turn to HIM for worship

So God wiped everyone out who wouldn't worship him? How is that free will? "Worship me or die" Sounds like a lovely god....

Quote:

in REV Chap 22 ver 18 talks about people that

add to HIS BIBLE GOD will add the plagues to these people

The plagues will be man made. Their hearts will become so hardened that they will no longer hear Gods spirit and there will be nothing left to restrain mans self destruction.

These are things that need to be dealt with. A simple "god is love and never changes" won't cut it. Because the Old and the New clearly show a change.

[Musicman1228]

There is tremendous danger in saying that the God of the O.T. is not the same as the God of the N.T. This is a scheme and deception of Satan that will allow him to become the god of the world at the end of time.

The Creator God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God does exact judgments and penalties on the wicked when their cup of iniquity is full. God does not use Satan to do His work, just as Satan does not use God to do His work. As Jesus said, "A house divided cannot stand."

Jesus did not use Beelzebub to cast out demons, as was the accusation of the Pharisees. God did not use Satan to bring about the world-wide flood which destroyed the entire population of the world (est. over 1 billion people), or send fire to destroy Sodom. It will not be Satan that throws himself into the lake of fire destroying evil forever, it will be God the Creator doing away with sin so the universe can finally live in peace.

God is the God of Love, He is also the God of Justice.

[BobRyan]

There is tremendous danger in saying that the God of the O.T. is not the same as the God of the N.T.

[BobRyan]

HEY LUTZ13

LET looks in REV chap 18 when GOD allows

spiritual Babylon to be destroyed is that a loving GOD that is in the new testament.

then when GOD allows Judas to be killed also in the

new testament loving GOD???

who were the people that GOD allowed to be killed in the

old testament or in the new testament

it was people that were working against GOD and

would not turn to HIM for worship

IN REV chap 22 ver 11 talks about people who are

still unjust and people who are filthy when GOD comes back

in REV Chap 21 ver 8 talks about different groups of

people that will be part of the lake of fire

in REV Chap 22 ver 18 talks about people that

add to HIS BIBLE GOD will add the plagues to these people

so is this a loving GOD????

dgrimm60

hint - every wicked person that God killed in the Old Testament - is raised to life in Rev 20 -- and "killed again" along with all the wicked people in both OT and NT that God did not specifically kill.

Only the saints escape the Rev 20 lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

hint - every wicked person that God killed in the Old Testament - is raised to life in Rev 20 -- and "killed again" along with all the wicked people in both OT and NT that God did not specifically kill.

Only the saints escape the Rev 20 lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

I just can't see how that is love. Why not just let them remain dead? Why does God need to raise them up just to torch them...Revenge?

It is just my opinion, and if I am lost because of it, so be it.

[BobRyan]

You may need to work through the details. But the fact that you are uncomfortable with the text of scripture - does not change the infallible word of God. It can not be made into "man's image".

In Ps 51 God says "you did all these things and I kept silent. You thought I was like you". The tendancy without scripture is to make God "in our own image" restricting him to what we think is best no matter what the Word of God actually says.

You are free to say "God's Word says this but it makes me uncomfortable" - but when you say "And I don't believe that part of God's Word". Or "I will try to bend, twist or wrench that text to my liking" then you are on Satan's ground and he can always leverage that path to his own uses.

Maxwell seems to enjoy doing that -- but it is not wise for Bible students to go down that road.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Shane]

Why not just let them remain dead? Why does God need to raise them up just to torch them...Revenge?

More like justice.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, it is for justice because of judgment.

[Dr. Shane]

It seems that our biggest problem when trying to talk with non-believers about Christianity is "proving" that the Bible is true.

I don't try to prove the Bible is true. People need the Lord. I try to look for their need and show them the Lord is the solution. There are all kinds of people that have all kinds of needs that the Lord can fill. Some people struggle with loneliness, others with finances, still others have broken hearts from divorce or some sort of rejection. There are many struggling with substance abuse or other obsessive or compulsive behavior.

God has not provided us with any sort of proof that will convince an unbeliever who does not want to believe. However the Holy Spirit is enough to convince the unbeliever looking for answers.

[Dr. Rich]

To answer the question on God is real or not, this is why we have prophecy. If anything that God gave us as a prophecy is wrong, then God would not be real. God did not predict--because He knows the end from the beginning. He is outside of our time limit.

When answering this question for the bible-the test is found in John 14:26 and 17:20. Since Jesus quoted scripture (old Testament) then we can also know that is true too. Check out Matthew 7:24-29 too.

[Lutz13]

You may need to work through the details. But the fact that you are uncomfortable with the text of scripture - does not change the infallible word of God. It can not be made into "man's image".

In Ps 51 God says "you did all these things and I kept silent. You thought I was like you". The tendancy without scripture is to make God "in our own image" restricting him to what we think is best no matter what the Word of God actually says.

You are free to say "God's Word says this but it makes me uncomfortable" - but when you say "And I don't believe that part of God's Word". Or "I will try to bend, twist or wrench that text to my liking" then you are on Satan's ground and he can always leverage that path to his own uses.

Maxwell seems to enjoy doing that -- but it is not wise for Bible students to go down that road.

in Christ,

Bob

One thing I am certain of Bob. That is the wrath of God. "I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath"(Hosea 13:11) We know Saul killed himself. We also know that God never changes so His wrath is the same always. So when His wrath is poured out on the world, it is Saul on a global scale. All restraint gone because man hardened his heart so hard he can no longer hear Gods voice.

“For our fathers have trespassed and done evil in the eyes of the Lord our god. They have forsaken Him, have turned their faces away from the dwelling place of the Lord, and turned their backs on Him.”(2 Chronicles 29:6) “Therefore the wrath of the Lord fell upon Judah and Jerusalem, and He has given them up to trouble, to desolation, and to jeering, as you see with your eyes.”(2 Chronicles 29:8)

That much I do understand. God never changes, so His wrath never changes. Which means His wrath in Revelation is the same wrath that hit Saul, Jesus, and the Israelis.(Much like 70AD, I would suggest reading the first chapter of the Great Controversy.)

There are still many unanswered questions that go through my mind though. Such as Elijah's sanity. "So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths"(2 Kings 2:24) Such a loving guy...Jesus said bless those who do us wrong, yet this loving fella cursed some kids...I'm left to assume he found God at a later point in his life. Because he wasn't representing the true God very well...

[Musicman1228]

Where did the idea come from that the New Testament in total has the same authority as the Old Testament? Jesus confirmed the Old Testament as Scripture by His using it to thwart the pharisees and to show who God the Father really is. Who gave that same authority to the New Testament?

[Gail]

I can't believe all the negative I am reading! If I was a non-Christian why would I ever want to open a Bible based on what is posted here?

Lutz, have you never gone through the Old Testament and noticed all the promises and words of comfort there? How could you miss it? The Psalms especially is full of words that touch the soul. Isaiah is one of my favourite books. Hosea was someone who didn't have the greatest life but from his life we gain a glimpse of the love God has for His wayward people.

Why dwell on the negative and not at least seek a balance? You will find it if you pray and let the Holy Spirit open your eyes to it.

I would say that one evidence that the Bible is real is what reading it does for a person's life. And if it is not a blessing to your life, giving you wisdom on how to live and providing you with hope, pointing you to salvation, then something's definitely wrong!

The Bible itself says, Taste and see that the Lord is good. If an Old Testament writer could say that there has got to be something there!

[Dr. Rich]

Gail wrote: "I would say that one evidence that the Bible is real is what reading it does for a person's life. And if it is not a blessing to your life, giving you wisdom on how to live and providing you with hope, pointing you to salvation, then something's definitely wrong!"

Ok, but then it would have been nice if someone had explained that to Hitler. Was not he an avid reader of the bible? Don't we have alot of people on death row today because of their avid reading of the bible?

BTW-It sure would be nice for someone to answer musicman's question in regards to the new testament.

[Gail]

Quote:

Ok, but then it would have been nice if someone had explained that to Hitler. Was not he an avid reader of the bible? Don't we have alot of people on death row today because of their avid reading of the bible?

I have no idea about Hitler. People on death row BECAUSE of the Bible? Don't you think that is the exception rather than the rule?

That's a bit absurd to give these as examples.

[Musicman1228]

In the final analysis it is not our job to prove that God exists to someone that does not want to know. God will prove Himself to those who develop the same kind of trust the Jesus had for His Father. How much faith did Jesus have to have to know that God was His Father? None. How much faith did Jesus need to heal the sick, raise the dead, or move mountains? Again, none. Faith leaves room for doubt. Jesus had no doubt as to who He was and what He had been sent here to do. So, how much faith do we need to develop to know what we must do for God and how we need to do it? None. Perfect love requires perfect trust. With perfect trust anything is possible, including becoming perfect in righteousness. When we are perfected in righteousness THEN the world will sit up and take notice. Then God will have proven His existence to a world full of doubt.

[Gail]

We are called to be witnesses, which means to tell of what we have experienced. Beyond that why do we have to prove anything?

[Lutz13]

I can't believe all the negative I am reading! If I was a non-Christian why would I ever want to open a Bible based on what is posted here?

Lutz, have you never gone through the Old Testament and noticed all the promises and words of comfort there? How could you miss it? The Psalms especially is full of words that touch the soul. Isaiah is one of my favourite books. Hosea was someone who didn't have the greatest life but from his life we gain a glimpse of the love God has for His wayward people.

Why dwell on the negative and not at least seek a balance? You will find it if you pray and let the Holy Spirit open your eyes to it.

I would say that one evidence that the Bible is real is what reading it does for a person's life. And if it is not a blessing to your life, giving you wisdom on how to live and providing you with hope, pointing you to salvation, then something's definitely wrong!

The Bible itself says, Taste and see that the Lord is good. If an Old Testament writer could say that there has got to be something there!

Gail, where I get a bit annoyed while reading the OT is when things are sounding great. Then all of a sudden threats are made, people get slaughtered by God, bears start mauling children. It seems impossible to avoid the negative.

[Gail]

I can understand that.

Lutz, have you ever thought about what you become when you surround yourself with negative? In the NT there is a verse which says that by beholding we become changed, and I believe that is true. I have a saying that what we surround ourselves with become our culture.

I don't like it either when there comes a negative account of something, but our sinful world is like that. It has some good in it, and then something unfair and tragic comes.

But if we focus on the negative we will begin to lose hope and our spirit will sink.

In the small ministry that I have I search out Bible promises and words of hope, in order to encourage others. There is lots there to choose from!

:)

[Ted Oplinger]

Tagging in a bit late...

Proving the Bible true? Archaeology has been doing that for decades, one dig at a time...