1844 and the sanctuary message

[Guest truthseeker007]

i am having a conversation with Tom Norris; an expert on seventh day adventism. I want to share with you our conversation and would like you to participate in expanding our knowledge. Tom denies that Jesus went into the most holy place in 1844.

QUESTION: Thank you for your answer, i really appreciate your honesty and the fact that you are able to think for yourself instead of wandering after cultic inventions. However i still have no satisfying explanation for the sanctuary stuff. So would you please boldly answer these questions for me?

1. Is the heavenly sanctuary of copy of the earthly sanctuary?

2. IF the answer is yes, then when did Jesus serve in the holy place?

3. The answer to question 2 must be before he went to this earth.

4. But with which blood he served there?it can t possible be his own blood

So doesn t this line of reasoning lead to the conclusion that Jesus did not went into the most holy place after his ascension. Furthermore how is it possible that you support a church that is founded on the basis of the assumption that Jesus went into the most holy place in 1844.

Maybe there is an investigative judgement, i hate that idea, but maybe it is not like Ellen White portrayed. She said that even one unconfessed sin would lead people to go to hell. Then nobody gets saved. And i agree with the Ford and others who protested against these cultic interpretations, but so far they haven t come up with reasonable explanations as to what happened in 1844.

Answer Q1. Is the heavenly sanctuary of copy of the earthly sanctuary?

A1: No! The opposite is true. Moses was shown a plan of how the earthly Sanctuary was to be built. Note that a lot of this detail is about the furniture.

Ex. 25:8 “Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them.

Ex. 25:9 “According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it.

Ex. 25:10 “They shall construct an ark of acacia wood two and a half cubits 2ong, and one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high.

Ex. 25:11 “You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and you shall make a gold molding around it.

Num. 8:4 Now this was the workmanship of the lampstand, hammered work of gold; from its base to its flowers it was hammered work; according to the pattern which the LORD had shown Moses, so he made the lampstand.

The NT agrees:

Acts 7:44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of testimony in the wilderness, just as He who spoke to Moses directed him to make it according to the pattern which he had seen.

Heb. 8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

(Note the phrase: “has taken his seat at the right hand of God…” This tense shows that Jesus was in the Most Holy Place in the 1st century.)

Heb. 8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

Heb. 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.

Heb. 8:4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

Heb. 8:5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”

The Earthly Sanctuary is a (faint) copy of the Heavenly. Which is very different than saying that the heavenly sanctuary is a copy of the earthly sanctuary.

Q2. IF the answer is yes, then when did Jesus serve in the holy place?

A2; The answer is no. The Earthly Sanctuary was a faint copy of the Heavenly. The HS was never a copy of the ES.

Moreover, Jesus did not become our high priest until he became a human, so he had no blood to offer, or the need to set up any rituals in heaven.

The term Holy Place, means the outer court in the OT. It stands for a point in time, before the cross.

Heb. 9:8-9 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time.

When did Jesus become a priest, and when did he sit down next to God?

Heb. 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Heb. 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,

BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

Heb. 10:6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

Heb. 10:7 “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME

(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)

TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”

Heb. 10:8 After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law),

Heb. 10:9 then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

Heb. 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb. 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;

Heb. 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Heb. 10:13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

Jesus became our high priest in the 1st century. After the cross, he went to heaven, into the most holy place. He did not wait until 1844 as the SDA’s claim. And there are many texts to prove this point.

Q3. The answer to question 2 must be before he went to this earth.

A3. There is no need to speculate about what the pre-incarnate Jesus was doing in heaven before he came down to earth as our sacrifice.

Nor is there any point in trying to get into the details of the sanctuary to the extent that many have tried. What is the point? If God had wanted us to know these details, he would have made it plain.

Q4. But with which blood did he serve there? It can’t possibly be his own blood?

A4: Do not think that the Jewish Temple is a fully correct working model of heaven. It is not. Nor is the Gospel to be preached as if it depended on our knowledge of the earthly or heavenly sanctuaries.

In fact, it was the Temple authorities that killed Christ and attacked the Gospel. So what does that say about the earthly sanctuary service and those that worked in the Temple? The Temple on earth became the enemy of the Gospel, so what the point in trying to make a big deal out of the Jewish Sanctuary?

It is a great mistake for the SDA’s to go around proclaiming that they have a “sanctuary message.” There is no such message for the church. Which is why they need to repent of this IJ nonsense.

Q5: So doesn’t this line of reasoning lead to the conclusion that Jesus did not go into the most holy place after his ascension.

A5: The NT is clear that Jesus went into the MHP, where God resides, in the 1st century. The fact that the NT refers to the MHP as the HP should not confuse anyone.

Heb. 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Heb. 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb. 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Upon his ascension, Christ entered into heaven and into the most holy place for us. Note the word “now.” It refers to the 1st century, not to 1844.

Heb. 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Right Hand of God

When the NT speaks of Jesus being located at the right hand of God, it means that he is in the Most Holy Place. There is no waiting until 1844 as the SDA’s teach. They do not understand the Bible correctly. Note how many times—in the 1st century--that the NT claims Jesus was next to God interceding for us.

Mark 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Acts 2:33 “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Acts 5:31 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

Acts 7:56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Rom. 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Eph. 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Eph. 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

Eph. 1:20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph. 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Eph. 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

Col. 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Heb. 1:3 He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Heb. 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Heb. 12:2 1fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Pet. 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

The Bible does not teach that Jesus went into the MHP in 1844. Rather, he went there in the 1st century.

Q6: Furthermore how is it possible that you support a church that is founded on the basis of the assumption that Jesus went into the most holy place in 1844.

A6: The SDA’s are NOT founded on the IJ or the date 1844, although this is what Traditional Adventism has been teaching for generations.

In fact, Dr. Ford was exiled in 1980 for trying to correct this great error. And until the SDA’s stop promoting so much false doctrine and historical fraud, they will continue to self-destruct for all to see.

Today, the SDA’s are very confused and disoriented about both Adventist history and doctrine. So much so, that they are not really Adventists at all. Nor do they support the fundamentals of Historic Adventism.

This popular idea, that SDA theology is based on the IJ, and that this teaching represents the judgment pillar from the 1st Angels Message is mythical nonsense. There is no such pillar, nor is the date October 22, 1844 a basis for the fulfillment of anything in heaven.

Furthermore, the SDA’s were never “founded” on any doctrine about the IJ or 1844, as Traditional Takoma Park Adventism taught. Rather, they were founded on the Millerite theology of the 1st and 2nd Angels Message, which had zero to do with any pre-advent Judgment in the Most Holy Place.

Moreover, I do not support the present doctrines, polices, or management structure of the SDA’s. I have gone on record condemning their many false doctrines and calling for Reform many times.

In fact, I warn all to beware of the SDA’s because they are very dishonest, arrogant, and wrong about most everything. Thus, while I support the Fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages and the 7 doctrinal pillars within the Adventist Apocalyptic, I do not support how the SDA’s have changed and manipulated their history and doctrine. They need to repent about both 1888 and Glacier View before I will ever support them.

Q7: Maybe there is an investigative judgment? I hate that idea, but maybe it is not like Ellen White portrayed. She said that even one unconfessed sin would lead people to go to hell. Then nobody gets saved. And i agree with the Ford and others who protested against these cultic interpretations, but so far they haven t come up with reasonable explanations as to what happened in 1844.

A7: Let’s be very clear. Neither the NT nor the OT contains the doctrine of the IJ, which was invented in the late 1850’s by the SDA’s in Battle Creek. THERE IS NO SUCH DOCTRINE AS THE IJ in the Bible. It was a mistake.

Furthermore, while most all SDA’s think the IJ is the #2 pillar in the 1st Angels Messages, this was never true at any time, nor is it true today. The White Estate and the Review have misled generations on this and other points.

Nothing took place in heaven in 1844. There was no fulfilling of prophecy as the confused SDA’s claim. Rather, it was the PREACHING of the Second Coming that represented the fulfillment of the 1st Angels Message.

As for Ellen White; she did become a legalist that claimed sinners had to reach perfection before they could be saved. But she changed this view after 1888. Too bad that the White Estate hid this dramatic change from the Adventist Community and marketed her in a very wrong and dishonest manner.

Adventism is a very large and complex topic that is not correctly understood by the public. This is because the SDA’s have been promoting so much false propaganda and misinformation for so many years. Let all beware the double-talking and dishonest SDA’s. Until they repent and correct the record, no one should trust them or believe a word they say.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com

[oldsailor29]

Actually the sanctuary described to Moses in Exodus is an exact copy of ancient pagan temples. And there is investigation and judgment in many places in the Bible, beginning in the Garden of Eden.

The Pagan religions were evolutionist, existentialist, and fertility religions. The two compartment design of their temple was an attempt to represent procreation actualities. The holy place represented the vagina and the most holy place represented the womb, where reproduction takes place, and where there is a regular issue of blood. The blood of sacrifices represented the blood of the female monthly cycle. The creation of life begins in the most holy place. That is why God is believed to dwell in the most holy place, because God is the creator. The pagans were partially correct, just like all of Satan's deceptions. They thought fertility could be obtained by having sex in the temple. That is why there were temple prostitutes. They were priestesses who were highly regarded. Many of the pagan child sacrifices came from the female temple prostitutes. There were also male temple prostitutes, who impregnated many of the women of the pagan community who came in for fertility reasons.

The ancient Hebrews believed God dwelt in their most holy place, above the ark of the covenant. When the High priest entered the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary, he was also entering the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. At that point in time the earthly sanctuary and the heavenly sanctuary were one in the same. So, as long as there was a sanctuary on earth, there was also a sanctuary in heaven. Now, there is none, and all the teachings about the sanctuary can be honestly assessed as learning aids, used to teach us about God. Same is true of the trinity concept. We learn more about God by our study of the trinity. Father and son, and child sacrifice are teaching aids. In actuality, it was God Himself who took on humanity and died on the cross. Jesus tried to tell us that, but most people still don't get it. Once we learn these truths, continued study of the sanctuary service is mostly non-productive. It is just like once we learn the meaning of a parable, we can see the truth without the help of the parable. Yes, there was a sower who went out to sow, but the lesson of the parable is not about the parable itself. The same is true of the sanctuary and service.

We do not need to get our thoughts all involved in whether Jesus is in the holy place or the most holy place. Jesus is God. Wherever He is, is the most holy place. But we need to understand that while He is revealing Himself to us here on earth and in heaven, and anywhere within time and space, He is also and mostly dwelling outside of time and space in His infinite realm. The temple cannot contain God, and neither can any time and space. God is everywhere and beyond.

Knowing these things keeps me from wanting to argue about 1844 or 1843, or when Jesus went into the most holy place. All these earthly things seem to get really dim when we behold Him in His infinite majesty. So I think we should be very careful, not to let Satan distract us from keeping our eyes upon Jesus who is God, and not overly involve our minds in the small earthly issues with which he uses to ensnare us for his purposes against God.

Enfeebled and defective as it is, The SDA church is still the object of God's supreme regard on this earth. And some of us want to trash it. Where is the love in that?

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks sailor for your wisdom. I agree that the sanctuary message should not be a salvational issue.

However, the early adventists admitted themselves that if 1844 was not a prophetic date, then the whole church is founded on a fraud. It is such a difficult debate that i don t think it will ever be settled...

[BobRyan]

The three Angel's message is the distinctive reason for the SDA church even being in existence.

It starts with the everlasting Gospel stating that "The hour of His Judgment has come". That hour began in the fall of 1844 corresponding to the Day of Atonement.

Adventists have historically been very clear on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The three Angel's message is the distinctive reason for the SDA church even being in existence.

It starts with the everlasting Gospel stating that "The hour of His Judgment has come". That hour began in the fall of 1844 corresponding to the Day of Atonement.

Adventists have historically been very clear on that point.

1. Is the heavenly sanctuary of copy of the earthly sanctuary? Yes

2. IF the answer is yes, then when did Jesus serve in the holy place? 30-31 AD - 1844

3. The answer to question 2 must be before he went to this earth. wrong. See Heb 7-9

4. But with which blood he served there?it can t possible be his own blood: His own blood

in Christ,

Bob

[oldsailor29]

The three Angel's message is the distinctive reason for the SDA church even being in existence.

It starts with the everlasting Gospel stating that "The hour of His Judgment has come". That hour began in the fall of 1844 corresponding to the Day of Atonement.

Adventists have historically been very clear on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

SDAs generally start with verse 7. The important verse for us is verse 6, the part about the everlasting gospel. The everlasting gospel is that Jesus paid the price for our sins, and so we are safe from the judgment which follows.

[John317]

We do not need to get our thoughts all involved in whether Jesus is in the holy place or the most holy place. Jesus is God. Wherever He is, is the most holy place. But we need to understand that while He is revealing Himself to us here on earth and in heaven, and anywhere within time and space, He is also and mostly dwelling outside of time and space in His infinite realm. The temple cannot contain God, and neither can any time and space. God is everywhere and beyond.

Jesus Christ is limited in space to His human body. He cannot be everywhere at once. That is why He must send the Holy Spirit to be with us, because Jesus Christ cannot be personally with us except by His representative.

The problem with John H. Kellogg was that in his understanding of the Godhead, God is literally and personally everywhere. Ellen White said that is wrong. God the Father and Jesus Christ are in the heavenly sanctuary. God the father has a form and a body and so does Jesus. Jesus Christ is forever a man. Yes, he is also fully God, but Jesus Christ is in the form of a servant. He voluntarily gave up the "form of God" forever when He became flesh.

[Musicman1228]

Truthseeker007,

Thank you for presenting this insight into the history of Adventism and how the Sanctuary service affects the general belief systems of the church. I agree with much of what you propose, especially about the investigative judgment, about which Bible prophecy does not teach.

I have been bringing up on this site similar problems with the Adventist mind set for a while now and have been roundly excoriated for denying my Adventist beliefs and not following the 'party line'.

Do not challenge the theology and inspiration of our founders, because then you too will experience what it means to be a pariah.

I do not agree with you on a couple of minor points (if there can be minor points in the study of prophecy). I am an SDA and choose to work within the church to affect a positive outcome, because I believe that the SDA church is the Kingdom of Heaven spoken of by Daniel in Dan.2 (the rock cut out without hands). You are correct when you say that NOTHING of a prophetic nature happened on March 22, 1844, but something did happen in the Spring of 1843 that was significant: the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan.8:14 was fulfilled in the re-establishing of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in the form of the SDA movement.

Since then Satan has worked very hard to make the SDA church of non-effect as a force in the world, and for the most part he has succeeded very well. The secondary work of the church has met with some success; Adventist health care, education systems, ADRA, and the like. But the primary reason for the existence of the SDA church acting as the Kingdom of Heaven to take the Truth about God to the world has failed miserably. We are less than 15 million members after over 140 plus years of effort to present the Advent message to the world. Why are we not yet in the billion range? Because of the example of what you have presented here; God CANNOT bless error, blaspheme and institutional arrogance in which lies are believed as truth, and human personalities take leadership over Divine character.

So you go for it, Truthseeker007, challenge away. But don't give up on the SDA church too easily because according to the prophecies in Dan. 2, Matt. 24 and 25, Revelation 1:1-3, and Rev.11:15 the Kingdom of Heaven will triumph in the end, crushing the kingdoms of the world, whereby the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ forever.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The three Angel's message is the distinctive reason for the SDA church even being in existence.

It starts with the everlasting Gospel stating that "The hour of His Judgment has come". That hour began in the fall of 1844 corresponding to the Day of Atonement.

Adventists have historically been very clear on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

SDAs generally start with verse 7. The important verse for us is verse 6, the part about the everlasting gospel. The everlasting gospel is that Jesus paid the price for our sins, and so we are safe from the judgment which follows.

The everlasting Gospel - as I point out in my note above - IS the first angel's message. And it includes "fear God and give glory to him for the hour of His Judgment has come".

This is why in Romans 2:11-16 Paul is so clear that the future Judgment is also part of the Gospel that Paul preached "When according to my GOSPEL God WILL JUDGE".

And I agree that the benefit of salvation -- true changed life salvation - is that we need not be condemned in that future judgment IF we are one of the FEW of Matt 7 who is "doing the will of the Father" not simply "saying the words" and then merely "supposing" that this means we are saved.

Recall that Ellen White was clear on the point -- that back in her day "not one in 20" within the church were in fact saved.

Imagine being college class and near the end the professor says "I have reviewed the grades and only 5% of this class is passing this course -- the rest are flunking".

As you sit there in the student's chair - are you "motivated" to take some action to ensure that you are one of the tiny 5%? I say for certain -- your life depends on it!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

You are correct when you say that NOTHING of a prophetic nature happened on March 22, 1844, but something did happen in the Spring of 1843 that was significant: the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan.8:14 was fulfilled in the re-establishing of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in the form of the SDA movement.

There are a great number of factual errors there.

1. 1843 was the wrong year entirely for the termination of the 2300 years.

2. The immortal soul believing, sunday keeping, pork-eathing, Heavenly Sanctuary rejecting, non-affiliated Millerites of 1843 were nothing like the seventh-day Adventists of the 1860's.

3. When they rallied for the 2nd time - and selected the spring of 1844 as the "new date" for the end of the 2300 days they had at most around 50,000 members. When the actual SDA group formed just 1 year after the fall of 1844 they had only about 50 left of the 50,000 that decided to join together as a body of believers which would later go on to become the Seventh-day Adventist church to which you claim to belong now.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

We are less than 15 million members after over 140 plus years of effort to present the Advent message to the world. Why are we not yet in the billion range? Because of the example of what you have presented here; God CANNOT bless error, blaspheme and institutional arrogance in which lies are believed as truth, and human personalities take leadership over Divine character.

I don't believe we can equate numbers with God's blessing. More important is the quality of people's dedication to Christ and the purity of their faith, not how many there are. If we go by the numbers, then we would have to say that God's blessing was greatest in the second to the fifth centuries. Babylon is in the billions. The false churches will always be more numerous and more popular. Their road is very wide. Therefore I don't think we ought to be looking so much to the numbers as to our own personal relationship with Christ and making sure we are living up to the light God has given to us.

[Richard Holbrook]

There are a great number of factual errors there.

[oldsailor29]

The everlasting Gospel - as I point out in my note above - IS the first angel's message. And it includes "fear God and give glory to him for the hour of His Judgment has come".

Imagine being college class and near the end the professor says "I have reviewed the grades and only 5% of this class is passing this course -- the rest are flunking".

As you sit there in the student's chair - are you "motivated" to take some action to ensure that you are one of the tiny 5%? I say for certain -- your life depends on it!

The everlasting gospel is not "The hour of His judgment is come." the everlasting gospel is that God paid the price of sin for us. The people who are saved are not judged, but God is judged in their place.

Your classroom metaphor would be valid if the professor took the test for his students, thereby passing all. This is what God has done. God has passed the test for all of us, so we don't need to be afraid of the judgment. Our proper performance motivation is never fear of failing, but only our love for God. We love Him because He paid the price for our redemption, which we could never pay. And there will be many who are saved which will surprise many others who think they shouldn't be saved. And if we are among the redeemed, we will rejoice for every soul who is saved.

[John317]

The people who are saved are not judged, but God is judged in their place.

The SDA church teaches that there is an Investigative Judgment of the saints. Why is there and how would you explain or describe this Judgment?

[John317]

And I don't see anything wrong with march, 1884 being the date that Jesus went in to the Most Holy Place.

Did you mean to say Oct. 1844?

[Richard Holbrook]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

And I don't see anything wrong with march, 1884 being the date that Jesus went in to the Most Holy Place.

Did you mean to say Oct. 1844?

Yes I did.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Musicman for your advice;

"So you go for it, Truthseeker007, challenge away. But don't give up on the SDA church too easily because according to the prophecies in Dan. 2, Matt. 24 and 25, Revelation 1:1-3, and Rev.11:15 the Kingdom of Heaven will triumph in the end, crushing the kingdoms of the world, whereby the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ forever."

I have prayed to God about this issue. I begged him to give somebody within the church dreams/and or visions to clarify the spirit of prophecy.

Ellen white said that in vision she saw Jesus changing apartments. So if Daniel 8;14 is not describing this event the whole church is a fraud. I don t believe the church is a fraud, but i hate the idea that i have to believe stuff just because others say it is like that. I am afraid to associate myself with the church because Jesus has no kind words for Laodicea, so i rather stay independent and investigate this church and the great controversy at large.

I tried, on my own strength to break free, determine which doctrines are right and which are wrong and then begin a worldwide evangelical campaign. But unfortunately i have not enough "weapons" to start a warfare on this planet. If i start spreading what i know, people will automatically doubt that which they cannot understand and i cannot explain. I hope God steps in to help us. More and more i am starting to believe that God doesn t really care what we believe, as long as we believe in him and trust him to judge every human being according to his heart. 99.9 percent of humanity is trapped in one of satan his lies. But i believe that God will forgive Buddhist, Hindu s, Muslims etc. as long as they speak the language of love. I don t think people will go to hell for their beliefs, but for how they responded to particular beliefs. The fruits of satanic deceptions are hate, self-love, etc. This is causing people to go to hell, not the beliefs itself.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

The people who are saved are not judged, but God is judged in their place.

The SDA church teaches that there is an Investigative Judgment of the saints. Why is there and how would you explain or describe this Judgment?

I'm not going to speculate upon the nature of investigative judgment, but I know this, any explanation is wrong which indicates that the righteousness of people determines the judgment they receive.

[Musicman1228]

2300 years (evenings and mornings prophecy) minus 457 B.C.E. (the beginning of the Dan.8:14 prophecy) equals 1843 C.E.

The Millerites got the date correct the first time, they just got the event wrong.

[John317]

I'm not going to speculate upon the nature of investigative judgment,

Why "speculation"? Are you saying that you don't know for certain about it?

I first joined the church after an evangelistic series and fell in love with the Adventist message, including the Investigative Judgment. Now, years later, I find that the message that drew me into the Adventist church is either largely rejected or not understood by Adventists. How can we hope to give the Three Angels Messages if we ourselves haven't accepted them or understood them?

What difference does it make whether we believe in these doctrines or not? Maybe they don't matter after all.

What do you think?

Quote:

but I know this, any explanation is wrong which indicates that the righteousness of people determines the judgment they receive.

Do you believe that Ellen White was given light from God on the Investigative Judgment? How trustworthy is she on that subject, in your thinking? Do you think she was wrong on it?

Of all her books, it was The Great Controversy that she had the greatest burden to see read by the people. It contains the message that she felt the most intense interest in and that she wanted the largest number of people to understand. If she was wrong about that, why should I care what she wrote and said?

[Dr. Rich]

Good questions John317 and Oldsailor, Page 433 of the 'Great Controversy' is what did 'it' for me. Now I see that this same thing has caused many to reconsider her 'divine' help.

I urge everyone to hang in there and not give up on the SDA church just because many of 'us' have been sold a faulty bill of goods. As musicman suggested, this is not about US--it is about truth.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The everlasting Gospel - as I point out in my note above - IS the first angel's message. And it includes "fear God and give glory to him for the hour of His Judgment has come".

Imagine being college class and near the end the professor says "I have reviewed the grades and only 5% of this class is passing this course -- the rest are flunking".

As you sit there in the student's chair - are you "motivated" to take some action to ensure that you are one of the tiny 5%? I say for certain -- your life depends on it!

The everlasting gospel is not "The hour of His judgment is come." the everlasting gospel is that God paid the price of sin for us. The people who are saved are not judged, but God is judged in their place.

Your classroom metaphor would be valid if the professor took the test for his students, thereby passing all. This is what God has done. God has passed the test for all of us, so we don't need to be afraid of the judgment.

[wayfinder]

I thought the eternal gospel is the gospel of the kingdom.

Mt 4:23

Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Mt 24:14

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

[BobRyan]

In Rev 14 the text itself says that the 1st Angels message is the "Eternal gospel" and then we are told exactly what is IN that message ... it starts with "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment has come".

Hence Paul can affirm the same point of "Gospel judgment" -- the good news that includes Judgment in Rom 2:11-16 "When according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all men through the man Christ Jesus".

No question about it - the NT authors place that teaching right in side the Gospel. The "eternal Gospel". And as Paul notes in Gal 1:6-11 "There is only ONE Gospel".

in Christ,

Bob

[oldsailor29]

I will not reject the investigative judgment. I will not reject Ellen White.

In one of her dream/visions she worked all night, cutting robes out of white material, for people who were going to be saved. As she worked, she saw the people for whom she was working. And in some cases she would complain that the people were undeserving. But the Lord would reply that He would decide who was to get robes, and she should just keep on cutting without being concerned about who deserves their robes. This experience demonstrates salvation by the grace of God, as opposed to whether or not a person deserves it.

Investigative judgment then must be to determine who has enough faith to accept God's gracious gift of salvation. If it isn't that, then I don't know what it is, but it certainly is not to determine who is righteous enough, because our righteousness is like filthy rags, worthless. Of course our sinfulness is filthy rags, but so is our righteousness.

I think this affirms righteousness by faith and denies the gospel according to Brinsmead.