Posting Personal Photographs Online

[Outta Here]

Why do you have problems with the church photographing your family doing fun things with the church? What seems to be the concern?

When children are photographed at a church function, they are identified as being members of that particular church. Church websites advertise days and hours of worship. My children, and the many other children who attend our church are attractive children. Persons of ill-repute can (and will) take advantage of our children when they know when and where our children are. My primary concerns are for the safety of our children (as well as the more vulnerable adult members). My secondary concerns are for taking the "feelings" of our children seriously--some simply do not wish their photos to be published online.

For what it's worth, it's not just the church that I have issues with regarding posting of photos online. I don't believe schools or other youth organizations ought to post these pictures either.

[Dr. Shane]

I am a childhood sexual-abuse survivor. In fact, I am going to be the featured speaker tonight at a 12-Step Speaker meeting and that is one of the things I am going to talk about.

As a society we have two dangers regarding pedophiles. One is that we ignore the issue and pretend like it can never happen to our kids or those around us. If we do that, we increase the danger of it happening. We need to take certain precautions. We should never allow our children to be unsupervised until they are 12 years old. We need to be very careful about who we allow to supervise our children. Our church school teachers, Sabbath School teachers, youth leaders, etc. need to submit to a background check. Often times those that molest children are family members like uncles, brother-in-laws, etc. We ought to seriously think about allowing relatives take care of our children if they are going to be alone with them.

The other danger is that we become so paranoid that in our attempt to protect our children, we smoother them. Life will never be risk free. There is no way we can protect our children from all risks. I heard of one man accusing another of being a pedophile because the man was friendly with kids. Most children that are abused are abused by people their parents trust. Most of the internet predators are going after kids that are teens and leave the house unsupervised. Most of them hook up with kids in chat rooms and internet forums. The chances that a predator is going to surf a church website, target a child and then seek that child out at the church is highly unlikely. It is more likely that the Sabbath School teacher that everyone loves is going to sexually abuse the child.

If we want to protect our children, as I am sure we all do, we need to focus on two basic issues. 1) Safe and proper supervision. 2) Open communication with them about the dangers in the world. Whether or not our church posts pictures of our families on the internet is not going to increase the risk of sexual abuse enough to even worry about.

[John317]

Personally I'm very polite when I do photography. If the situation is right, I often talk to people so they realize what I'm doing.

For instance, I went to *Roy Allen Anderson's home in order to photograph him. I called him up and got his permission to make a portrait. But I never obtain people's signature, and I rarely ask people in public places if I can take their picture. I'm usually looking for unposed, "natural" pictures and I've found that as soon I ask people if I can photograph them, it is no longer the kind of picture I'm seeking.

* RAA was one of the principle writers of the book, Questions On Doctrine.

[Outta Here]

Whether or not our church posts pictures of our families on the internet is not going to increase the risk of sexual abuse enough to even worry about.

For you, perhaps. In my opinion, the increased risk is most assuredly enough to cause concern.

[Outta Here]

John, I appreciate your honesty, and your politeness when photographing others. To be frank, however, I would find it a very creepy situation if I were to find out that an adult male were taking photographs of my children. (Just being honest.)

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Whether or not our church posts pictures of our families on the internet is not going to increase the risk of sexual abuse enough to even worry about.

For you, perhaps. In my opinion, the increased risk is most assuredly enough to cause concern.

OK. Please provide me examples of when churches posting pictures on line has led to sexual abuse. If this is such a great danger there must be several hundred cases of it happening already.

[GreatLakesGramma]

In this day and age, when young children disappear in the night from their own beds in their own homes, I don't believe it is safe to post children's photos online where they can be seen by anyone and everyone. Sometimes the first sign anyone has that a child has been targeted by a predator is their disappearance.

[Amelia]

Shane, it can be sexual abuse if a pedophile takes that posted pic and then circulates it on websites dedicated to viewing children for gratification.

[Dr. Shane]

Part of the problem is that people are more concerned about strangers molesting their children than those near and dear to them. Folks, we need to wake up to the real danger. The real danger is our friends and family.

Let me ask this. Does your church require background checks for everyone working with children? That would include school teachers, sabbath school teachers, Pathfinder leaders, etc. The chances of one of those people sexually molesting a child is probably 10,000 times greater than some stranger coming to church after seeing pictures on a website, targeting a child and somehow gaining enough access to molest the child.

So if your church doesn't require background checks, worry about that first. That is a real threat. Online predators surfing church websites is so far down on the list of possible threats I would not lose a minute of sleep over it.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, it can be sexual abuse if a pedophile takes that posted pic and then circulates it on websites dedicated to viewing children for gratification.

That is going out to the edges of paranoia. If pedophiles want pictures of fully dressed children for some perverted purposes of gratification, they need only surf the Target or JCPenny websites.

Understand, I am an advocate for protecting our children. I have brought up issues with our local church board about ways our local church school can better educate our children to protect them from predators. I am a childhood, sexual-abuse survivor. I don't want to see any child molested. But we can't lock our kids in a box to protect them either.

I am not sure that a church posting pictures online is going to help enhance the church's image in the community. I am on our church board and if our pastor wanted to do that, I am not sure how I would feel about it. However the concern about sexual predators would not influence my vote one way or the other. I don't see that as a real threat.

[GreatLakesGramma]

It may be a relatively rare thing for a stranger to abduct a child for prostitution, pornography, or his own sexual use, but it does happen, and if it happened to be YOUR child that was the one in a million, you would probably never get over blaming yourself for not being more cautious. It's bad enough when a friend or relative molests a child, but at least they don't usually kill them. When a stranger abducts a child, especially for trafficking, you may never see them again. You would never know if they were dead or alive, and if alive, what their life has become.

I don't think it's at all out of line to choose to avoid allowing your child's photo to be posted publicly. I would rather be considered paranoid than risk even a minute chance of unnecessarily drawing the attention of the wrong person. It doesn't have to be done in a way that makes a child fearful and paranoid.

Stick to your guns, Aubrey, and don't let anyone dissuade you.

[Neil D]

My ex was a teacher/principle of one of our schools...and I would hear stories of ex dads or moms taking the child from the school and the school being tied legally. .....

And at one time, I was on the board of a church that supplied children to one of our schools. At one time, it was discussed that a a person who was convicted of sexual molestation wanted to join our church. The pastor was very frank with us and told us that this person could NEVER be alone while in church for even a minute. It was up to the deacons and elders to keep an eye on the man, especially when he went to the bathroom. He had been coming to our church for many month with friends who were trusted people. We knew the man..

After that episode, I went to talk to a few people about sexual molestation. Shane is correct in that incidences of molestations involve family and friends more than strangers.

The question that I have for you is that of trusting your church family. Is your church family aware of these fears that you have? [very valid fears, I might add]. Also, balance those fears with the desire for the elder population of the church who desire to see children and reminence. If your church family is trustworthy, they too will keep an eye out on your children to ease your fears. Most church familys desire the best for thier parishioners.

[John317]

If you feel that there is something odd about a man taking a bunch of pictures of your children, there may be.

[Dr. Shane]

It may be a relatively rare thing for a stranger to abduct a child for prostitution, pornography, or his own sexual use, but it does happen

[John317]

If you have a bad feeling about someone photographing your children, I don't think you should be hesitant about voicing your opinion about it.

Would you have a bad feeling if you were the mother in this socialist/communist demonstration and saw your child being photographed like this child was?

My guess is that you're talking about your child being photographed in ways that make it evident that something is wrong. Maybe the photographer is spending too much time concentrating just on children at the beach or maybe at a swimming pool. In this case, I would certainly tell the person to move on. But if it's a matter of taking a few pictures, and if my kids are dressed decently, I wouldn't be concerned.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Let's not change the subject here. We are talking about strangers that come to our churches after seeing pictures on a website.

No Shane, we are talking about whether it's OK for parents to oppose allowing photos of their children to be posted publicly online without their approval. Everything I've said is just as fitting for this subject as anything you've said. Presumably, if Aubrey and her husband are opposed to having their children's photos posted publicly, they are just as cautious in the ways you are addressing. I always was with my kids, and even more so now, when I have my grandchildren.

[Dr. Shane]

It is OK for parents to oppose anything they want to oppose. I am speaking not as a paranoid parent that is going off half-cocked about something. I am speaking as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse that has gone through treatment for that abuse and has been active in organizations to prevent that abuse. I am telling anyone that cares to listen, if you want your church to be safer, get the church board to require background checks for anyone working with children.

If a sexual predator comes to your church in search of a victim, they rarely kidnap the victim. They gain everyone's confidence and they are very good at it. Then they get selected for a position of trust that allows them to work with children. When it is discovered that they have been sexually abusing children, everyone is surprised and say they would have never expected it.

Predators that kidnap kids will take them after school when they are walking home. They take them at the park. They target kids that don't have constant supervision. That is why I said that kids should have constant supervision until they are 12.

Kids 12 and older also get kidnapped. They are not safe either. That is where education comes into play. We need to talk to our kids from the time they are young about sexual predators. Knowledge offers them a lot of protection. Kids this age are especially targeted by internet predators.

Some people are so worried about dying in a plane crash that they will never fly. The fact that it is much more dangerous to drive or ride in a car is irrelevant to them. They have a phobia of planes and will never fly. The people that will take their children to a church where background checks are not done but not allow the church to post their pictures on the internet are using the same logic.

[Outta Here]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

It may be a relatively rare thing for a stranger to abduct a child for prostitution, pornography, or his own sexual use, but it does happen

Let's not change the subject here. We are talking about strangers that come to our churches after seeing pictures on a website.

[olger]

If you're doing everything you can to ensure your children's safety, then our opinion doesn't really matter. Just keep doing the right thing.

g

[Outta Here]

Acutally, your opinions DO matter. They matter every bit as much as mine do. I asked, because I thought that I might have been unreasonable in thinking that it was wrong to ask my church to NOT post personal photos online. I wanted to hear the reasons why others thought it was okay. But, what I'm seeing here is that it's really NOT okay to post those photos--it really IS okay to request that my children's photos be kept private. I'm seeing that I had valid concerns and that I should NOT have been shunned by the website owner for giving my opinions (when he's the one who asked for them in the first place). I'm seeing that the general concensus among parents (especially among female parents) is that it is entirely reasonable to expect our church to keep our children safe.

[olger]

Put me down on the side that thinks you are overreacting.

[Outta Here]

Duly noted. Thank you for your participation in this thread. Your opinion is valuable and your contribution appreciated.

[puddles]

It's been a while since I have been here to CA and this is the first thread that I came to. I've read thru the posts and agree that we need to protect our children in this "high tech" society where it's easy to snap a photo with out cameras or cell phones, etc.

However, my church just had it's VBS program and myself along with a couple of others took photo's all week and I ended up with roughly 300-400 photos of the weeks VBS activities which I compiled into a power point slide presentation that was shown as part of our closing program last Sabbath. Parents and "VBSers" were there and we even offered parents a clopy of the PP if they would like.

Am I going to post these on our church's website now after I read your comments? NO WAY! And I was thinking of posting a few to show what a really great VBS we had, but not wanting to be sued put a stop to that idea. And I will be advising our VBS director to have parental consent next year so we don't have to worry.

But how do you tell a child whose parents don't want their child's photo taken and is setting next to another child whose parents gave permission that you can't take their photo and to please move out of the way without causing a scene? Does the child understand what is going on?

All our VBSers had such a thrill at seeing their photo's in the PP and parents just kept saying that it looked like their child had such a great time!

[Richard Holbrook]

Take the pictures first, like you already have, and then get the permission for the ones you want to post.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I was thinking of posting a few to show what a really great VBS we had, but not wanting to be sued put a stop to that idea.

The fear of lawyers causes us to rethink a lot of things that may possible be very good.

Quote:

All our VBSers had such a thrill at seeing their photo's in the PP and parents just kept saying that it looked like their child had such a great time!

A lot of people think that going to church is boring and that we never have any fun. Better not post any pictures that would change their mind about that.