Signs of the times...

[Stewart (SDA)]

Is it possible for a watchman to stay constantly awake for long periods of time without getting sleepy? The reason the military has guard duty as 2 on 4 off (2 hours of duty, 4 hours of rest) is because in order for the soldier to stay awake and alert he needs to be rested, slightly hungry and well prepared mentally and physically for any challenge that may arise on his watch.

Does God expect His watchman on the walls of Zion to be able to stay alert all the time, or did He give hints as to what time of night the thief would come so they could be ready at the proper time? (ref. Rev.3:3, Matt.24:45-51, Luke 12:39)

I think I understand your point Musicman, but I must differ on this. In my view God does expect His watchmen to be able to stay alert all the time.

"...let us NOT sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober." (1Thess 5:6)

In my view, this admonition can be lived.

Isaiah speaks of the woeful state of the church in his day, when he says,

"His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb [mute] dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber." (Isa 56:10) But this need not have been the case. Constant watchfulness is possible, I believe, because God is able to make it a part of our character.

Also from EGW:

"Watchmen on the walls of Zion must be wide awake... there is no place for sleepy watchmen on the walls of Zion." (1888 Materials 720)

_________

Regards,

Stewart

[Stewart (SDA)]

Yes, physically we must sleep. But spiritually, no, I do not believe it is necessary.

[Guest]

Watch against the stealthy approach of the enemy, watch against old habits and natural inclinations, lest they assert themselves; force them back, and watch. Watch the thoughts, watch the plans, lest they become self-centered. Watch over the souls whom Christ has purchased with His own blood. Watch for opportunities to do them good. (AG 332)

_____________

Our watching is not to be confined to outward things.

Regards,

Stewart

Excellent advise

[Stewart (SDA)]

Yes, and all these things you listed will happen naturally as we are kept by the power of God ready to be revealed in the last time for that commandment "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thess 5:6) is a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfilment through the merits of Christ.

"There is a need for constant watchfulness and of earnest, loving devotion, but these will come naturally when the soul is kept by the power of God through faith." F.W.38,39.

sky

Thankyou Sky. I accept and agree that those things will happen naturally.

But that doesn't mean that there will be no determination and efforts required on our part, does it?

I hate the thought of appearing to use Scripture against Scripture, or Testimony against Testimony, but

"No one of us will gain the victory without persevering, untiring effort, proportionate to the value of the object which we seek..." (TM 511)

It will be natural for the true Christian to "watch", just as it is natural for the godly parent to make efforts for the welfare of his children.

Regards,

Stewart

[wayfinder]

Mt 25:5

"Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

Ps 127:1

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Mt 24:43

"But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

Who is this "Head of the House" who knows the time of the return of the Master?

Matthew 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

The Son of Man is coming at a time when He is not expected! When does everyone expect Him to come, the answer is easy, at the end of the great tribulation in the clouds (when every eye will see Him) to take the saints home. If this is when the watchman expects Him then the Son of Man will certanly suprise him when He comes like a thief in the night.

[Guest]

So you believe the 2nd coming will be a secret, but it will be the 3rd coming that every eye shall see?

[wayfinder]

Richard,

It is not a secret. Jesus told His disciples, "as it was in the days of Noah..." A thief comes at night while everyone sleeps. This is not about nighttime, but spiritual night i.e. no prophet, no messenger, on signs and wonders; life appears to be going on as usual. We are waiting for the Sunday law and the mark of the beast, what if He comes before that. In Revelation 7, the 144,000 are sealed before the four winds are released.

I am not talking about a secret rapture; I am talking about the return of The Son of Man to His household to tell them what they must do. The household must be awake and ready to obey His instructions when He returns. The cry at midnight (night time) that awakens the bridesmaids is what happens just after the Son of Man comes to His bondservants and sends them on ahead of Him.

[Guest]

Just so I have it straight before I ask any questions: You are saying that the 2nd coming will not be the one where every eye shall see him. Right?

[wayfinder]

That is correct.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Richard,

...A thief comes at night while everyone sleeps. This is not about nighttime, but spiritual night i.e. no prophet, no messenger, on signs and wonders; life appears to be going on as usual..."

At the moment I cannot see a way of reconciling your thought here with the following thought:

I don't see that Jesus will come "while everyone [spiritually] sleeps".

"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as others do; but let us watch and be sober.

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober..."

(1Thess 5:4-8)

Stewart

[Guest]

Do you have any scripture, other than "thief in the night"? to show there is a third coming before every eye shall see him?

[Stewart (SDA)]

Won't the people of God, at the second coming, be "of the day", and spiritually awake?

[wayfinder]

Rev. 3:3 `So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Rev. 3:10 `Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Rev.7:14 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Rev. 24:48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, `My master is not coming for a long time,' and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Think about this. The coming in the clouds occurs at the seventh bowl of wrath at the end of the great tribulation. Salvation (probation) ends at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. How can the kingdom of heaven sleep through the seven trumpets the seven bowls of wrath and be awakened from their slumber by a voice that says wakeup He is here, lets go home; but only half are ready. The other half need oil to go to heaven.

[Twilight]

Exactly. Well said Mark. One should be able to appreciate that by directing the eyes of the people to Jesus, to His divine person, and to His merits, to the necessity of appropriating His merits to ourselves, that we are bringing glory to God by showing the perfection of the ransom paid. The merits of Christ are everything to us. By extolling the merits of Jesus we lose sight of self, of anything that pertains to selfishness and sin and our minds become focussed on everything that pertains to life and godliness for the merits of Jesus, as we claim them, blot out transgressions and clothe us with the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousnss and His righteousness is absolute. It fills up the measure of the law's demands.

It is our privilege to claim the merits of Jesus and then expect that the Father will not only receive us to Himself but that He will treat us accordingly, according as Jesus deserves to be treated. In fact, as we rest in the merits of Jesus in order to receive all the blessings of the covenant of grace, the Father loves us as He loves His Son.

"Behold what manner of love!"

We are to teach this to adventists and non-adventists alike. In fact this is the message that God has commanded to be given, not only to the church, but to the world. But it must be given to the church first. See T.M.92.

sky

*that would explain why the pen of inspiration has told us that the merits of Christ are to be presented as the remedy provided for selfishness, self-centeredness and sin. See F.W.100,101.

This simple truth has changed my walk with God. :-)

[Twilight]

Believe me, musicman, there are some here that are not "boxed in" as you think on spiritual matters. They can think outside the box so to speak and they have kept pace with the light but they will not adhere to the teachings of one who would do away with Paul's letters and belittle the Testimonies as you have done.

You are waisting your time and our time.

Your zeal is worthy of a better cause.

sky

Agreed.

These are all things many of us are settled in MM.

You are wasting your time if you think that you can persuade otherwise.

We do not need or want to follow "Dr Rich", who seems to be the leader in this, it is a false Gospel.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

For me a thought comes to mind about "watching":

"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thess 5:6)...

Watch against the stealthy approach of the enemy, watch against old habits and natural inclinations, lest they assert themselves; force them back, and watch. Watch the thoughts, watch the plans, lest they become self-centered. Watch over the souls whom Christ has purchased with His own blood. Watch for opportunities to do them good. (AG 332)

_____________

Our watching is not to be confined to outward things.

Things are happening in the world; things are happening in the churches, but a good deal of our watching is to be in terms of our own thoughts, conduct, and Christian duty.

Regards,

Stewart

Agreed Stewart. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Yes, and all these things you listed will happen naturally as we are kept by the power of God ready to be revealed in the last time for that commandment "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thess 5:6) is a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfilment through the merits of Christ.

"There is a need for constant watchfulness and of earnest, loving devotion, but these will come naturally when the soul is kept by the power of God through faith." F.W.38,39.

sky

Thankyou Sky. I accept and agree that those things will happen naturally.

But that doesn't mean that there will be no determination and efforts required on our part, does it?

I hate the thought of appearing to use Scripture against Scripture, or Testimony against Testimony, but

"No one of us will gain the victory without persevering, untiring effort, proportionate to the value of the object which we seek..." (TM 511)

It will be natural for the true Christian to "watch", just as it is natural for the godly parent to make efforts for the welfare of his children.

Regards,

Stewart

When we are united to Christ, there is a super-natural effort that is given and supplied, that we make use of... :-)

Mark

[skyblue888]

Of course Stewart, when it says that these things will come naturally it is talking about "the law of the human and divine action." F.W.27. It is the same as saying "when the soul is kept by the power of God through faith." F.W.38, bottom of page. It is this union that makes us colaborers with God. "It brings man where he can, united with Divinity, work the works of God." F.W.27.

You read the statement. It did say that that these things will come naturally when we are kept by the power of God through faith. Human effort without divine power is worthless.

"If divine power does not combine with human effort, I would not give a straw for all that the greatest man could do." 1 S.M.411.

"In the work of God humanity can originate nothing." C.O.L.418.

Oh, Mark, you said, "When we are united to Christ, there is a super-natural effort that is given and supplied, that we make use of... :-)

Mark, we would not know how to use that power. That power is the Holy Spirit for it is through the Holy Spirit that Christ dwells in the hearts of His followers. "We cannot use the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is to use us." D.A.672.

Back to you Stewart and Mark

sky

So we must keep these things in mind when we read statements the like of which Stewart just quoted: "No one of us will gain the victory without persevering, untiring effort, proportionate to the value of the object which we seek..." (TM 511)

[Twilight]

Of course Stewart, when it says that these things will come naturally it is talking about "the law of the human and divine action." F.W.27. It is the same as saying "when the soul is kept by the power of God through faith." F.W.38, bottom of page. It is this union that makes us colaborers with God. "It brings man where he can, united with Divinity, work the works of God." F.W.27.

You read the statement. It did say that that these things will come naturally when we are kept by the power of God through faith. Human effort without divine power is worthless.

"If divine power does not combine with human effort, I would not give a straw for all that the greatest man could do." 1 S.M.411.

"In the work of God humanity can originate nothing." C.O.L.418.

Oh, Mark, you said, "When we are united to Christ, there is a super-natural effort that is given and supplied, that we make use of... :-)

Mark, we would not know how to use that power. That power is the Holy Spirit for it is through the Holy Spirit that Christ dwells in the hearts of His followers. "We cannot use the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is to use us." D.A.672.

Back to you Stewart and Mark

sky

So we must keep these things in mind when we read statements the like of which Stewart just quoted: "No one of us will gain the victory without persevering, untiring effort, proportionate to the value of the object which we seek..." (TM 511)

Agreed, it is talking about effort "in Christ"... :-)

Mark

[Lutz13]

Agreed.

These are all things many of us are settled in MM.

You are wasting your time if you think that you can persuade otherwise.

We do not need or want to follow "Dr Rich", who seems to be the leader in this, it is a false Gospel.

Mark :-)

Indeed. God showed me through experience what it is like to throw out and twist scripture to my own bias. Will not go down that road again.

[Guest]

Good for you Lutz. Praise God.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Of course Stewart, when it says that these things will come naturally it is talking about "the law of the human and divine action." F.W.27. It is the same as saying "when the soul is kept by the power of God through faith." F.W.38, bottom of page. It is this union that makes us colaborers with God. "It brings man where he can, united with Divinity, work the works of God." F.W.27.

You read the statement. It did say that that these things will come naturally when we are kept by the power of God through faith. Human effort without divine power is worthless.

"If divine power does not combine with human effort, I would not give a straw for all that the greatest man could do." 1 S.M.411.

"In the work of God humanity can originate nothing." C.O.L.418.

Oh, Mark, you said, "When we are united to Christ, there is a super-natural effort that is given and supplied, that we make use of... :-)

Mark, we would not know how to use that power. That power is the Holy Spirit for it is through the Holy Spirit that Christ dwells in the hearts of His followers. "We cannot use the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is to use us." D.A.672.

Back to you Stewart and Mark

sky

So we must keep these things in mind when we read statements the like of which Stewart just quoted: "No one of us will gain the victory without persevering, untiring effort, proportionate to the value of the object which we seek..." (TM 511)

Agreed, it is talking about effort "in Christ"... :-)

Mark

Amen Mark :)

[skyblue888]

"There are consciencious souls that trust partly to God and partly to themselves. They do not look to God, to be kept by His power, but depend upon watchfulness against temptation and the performance of certain duties for acceptance with Him. There are no victories in this kind of faith. Such persons toil to no purpose; their souls are in continual bondage, and they find no rest until their burdens are laid at the feet of Jesus. There is need for constant watchfulness, and of earnest, loving devotion, but these will come naturally when the soul is kept by the power of God through faith." F.W.38,39,

"You want to be like little children, hanging upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Then you will be fortified. How? the angels of God will be around you as a wall of fire; the righteousness of Christ, which you claim, goes before you, and the glory of God is your rearward." MS 9, 1891.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Believe me, musicman, there are some here that are not "boxed in" as you think on spiritual matters. They can think outside the box so to speak and they have kept pace with the light but they will not adhere to the teachings of one who would do away with Paul's letters and belittle the Testimonies as you have done.

You are waisting your time and our time.

Your zeal is worthy of a better cause.

sky

Agreed.

These are all things many of us are settled in MM.

You are wasting your time if you think that you can persuade otherwise.

We do not need or want to follow "Dr Rich", who seems to be the leader in this, it is a false Gospel.

Mark :-)

The last thing I would do is try to persuade any of you on this thread of anything, because as you say, it would be a wasted effort on my part. The trap I have set of you all along has been to open myself up to ridicule and scorn by letting you know what I have come to understand to be true, and you (plural) have fallen right into my trap and do indeed put my beliefs and understanding to ridicule and scorn. You see, my plan is working perfectly. I wouldn't want any of you to put my beliefs to a fair test against the words and teachings of Jesus because then you might actually find that one or two things might make sense and then you wouldn't be able to practice this ancient and fine art of ridicule, scorn and jumping to conclusions, which you practice with such enthusiasm and skill.

And what makes you think that Dr. Rich is leading you, me or anyone into a false gospel. In order to determine whether that is the case you would actually have to make an effort to understand what he has been saying by suspending your current belief system (your disbelief) long enough to assess the facts and make a fair determination based on the testimony of Jesus Christ. You have not done this as yet in the time that I have been on this forum, and I don't suspect that you will do this any time in the future. I must admit that giving up the dogmas of the distant past in order to try to find out whether what you believe to be true really is true is difficult if not impossible for most people to accomplish. Why I thought some of you might be able to pull this off is beyond my comprehension.

Apropos of nothing whatever, I make my own determinations as to what I believe. While I respect and appreciate what he is trying to do I don't use Dr. Rich, or this forum, or anyone other that Jesus Christ's words and teachings for that purpose.

By the way - Happy Sabbath.

[LifeHiscost]

HEY TWILIGHT

WE are to be aware of the events around us but

we are not to ...take

our sight off....JESUS

and his work...

dgrimm60

It seems to me, that is best addressed like this.

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."James 1:27 KJV

" And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Matthew 25:40 KJV

Regards!