Bible models for Chistian Character vs evolutionism

[BobRyan]

"Some" have argued that the Bible model for Christian character might have some similarities to the doctrines of evolutionism.

Hopefully this is an area of the board where Bible views on this topic can be posted.

In 2Cor 5 we see that the Bible view is one of divine fiat "creation" for the new nature -- "if anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation". That is not the false doctrine of evolutionism being modeled - but the Bible doctrine of instant creation.

In 2Peter 1 we have Peter's "ladder" of sanctification where the new nature - the new birth-Christian "grows" in grace. Rather than the false doctrines of evolutionism with "one species turning into another species over time".

in 1Cor 15 we have the "instant creation" of the glorified body -- not the "slow evolution over time" of an amoeba-to-man evolutionist model.

In fact the only place we see the spiritual application of evolutionism is in Genesis 2 - where Satan argues that Eve will 'evolve' into a higher order of being IF she follows the path of conflict and rebellion over time.

What say you? Are these thoughts allowed?

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

You make a good point Bob, It shows where the idea came from in the first place. It worked with Eve, and it's still working today even among Adventists. Why would anybody among us waste their time trying to figure out and prove scientifically how we got here, instead of just taking God at his word. But they do, and it seems to be the most educated folk that buy into it.

[olger]

Great question. I believe that is comes froma desire to be accepted by the world. For instance many Christian colleges desired acceptance from the wealthy and prestigious (And wrong) secular colleges and said "We want a place at the table." In order to get that place at the table they were willing to compromise beliefs.

Wala...

g

[Bravus]

Anyone interested in hearing some actual motivations, rather than evil surmisings?

[Guest]

evil surmisings?

[Bravus]

Each poster in this thread before me had ascribed motives to those who explore evolution, and in each cases those ascribed motives were less than admirable. Yet none of them even come close to my own motives, or those of any other poster here I know, or any of my friends in the science and science education communities. So, since those motivations were just surmises, and since they were not admirable, I called them 'evil surmisings'. The offer to open a window into the actual motivations still stands...

[Guest]

I did not ascribe a motive to anyone. I simply stated a fact. I don't know their motivations.

I know you say you're just after the truth, but dosn't that imply that you're not satisfied with what the Bible says? That God's word is not enough for you?

[Bravus]

Is creation God's creation? Does He reveal himself in his creation? Or does his creation not speak of Him at all?

Scientists throughout the ages including such luminaries as Newton have studied the world because they saw it as studying God's revelation of Himself through his creation. I'm definitely no Newton, but I do the same.

[Tom Wetmore]

I did not ascribe a motive to anyone. I simply stated a fact. I don't know their motivations...

The only truth in what you said is the last sentnece.

You in fact did ascribe motives and they were not factual, if factual has anything to do with the truth, or accuracy.

Read again what you said, and think about it...

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

You make a good point Bob, It shows where the idea came from in the first place. It worked with Eve, and it's still working today even among Adventists. Why would anybody among us waste their time trying to figure out and prove scientifically how we got here, instead of just taking God at his word. But they do, and it seems to be the most educated folk that buy into it.

Agreeing with Bob's twisted surmising about motives and where the idea comes from in the first place was ascribing Satanic motivation. And you ascribe that motivation to two specific groups, Adventists today and most educated folk.

What is your level of education? Compared to the majority of earth's population if you have had any formal education you are among those educated folk.

OK, let's just uneducate ourselves and see how dumb and stupid we really can be...

[skyblue888]

"Some" have argued that the Bible model for Christian character might have some similarities to the doctrines of evolutionism.

Hopefully this is an area of the board where Bible views on this topic can be posted.

In 2Cor 5 we see that the Bible view is one of divine fiat "creation" for the new nature -- "if anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation". That is not the false doctrine of evolutionism being modeled - but the Bible doctrine of instant creation.

In 2Peter 1 we have Peter's "ladder" of sanctification where the new nature - the new birth-Christian "grows" in grace. Rather than the false doctrines of evolutionism with "one species turning into another species over time".

in 1Cor 15 we have the "instant creation" of the glorified body -- not the "slow evolution over time" of an amoeba-to-man evolutionist model.

In fact the only place we see the spiritual application of evolutionism is in Genesis 2 - where Satan argues that Eve will 'evolve' into a higher order of being IF she follows the path of conflict and rebellion over time.

What say you? Are these thoughts allowed?

in Christ,

Bob

Right on Bob!

sky

[Guest]

The only truth in what you said is the last sentnece.

You in fact did ascribe motives and they were not factual, if factual has anything to do with the truth, or accuracy.

[Tom Wetmore]

You are right about the word "the", but that really doesn't help as much as you seem to want to make it sound. You are still impuning those with more education. How much do you consider too much? The implication is you can't trust an educated person and the more they have the worse they are.

But you still fail to get the point that what you have written indeed does come across as ascribing motives.

[Bravus]

It's an interesting thing to me. Lots of educated people have a problem with a certain doctrine, and the question is *always* phrased as 'what's wrong with education?' Just once it'd be interesting to ask the question 'what's wrong with the doctrine?' Surely that's what would happen in any other domain of life. If there was some doctrine in science or the arts or business or whatever, and the more educated a person was the more likely s/he was to question that doctrine...

[BobRyan]

Each poster in this thread before me had ascribed motives to those who explore evolution, and in each cases those ascribed motives were less than admirable. Yet none of them even come close to my own motives, or those of any other poster here I know, or any of my friends in the science and science education communities. So, since those motivations were just surmises, and since they were not admirable, I called them 'evil surmisings'. The offer to open a window into the actual motivations still stands...

In my OP I simply pointed to Bible facts about the new birth and resurrection doctrines that appealed to the same "God spoke and it was " instant creation concept as we find in Genesis 1-2:3.

By contrast - I then pointed to a clear "evolve to a new species through conflict" doctrine that Satan taught in Genesis 3.

I mentioned no person "exploring evolutionism" -- I simply pointed to Bible facts that fit those two models.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

You make a good point Bob, It shows where the idea came from in the first place. It worked with Eve, and it's still working today even among Adventists. Why would anybody among us waste their time trying to figure out and prove scientifically how we got here, instead of just taking God at his word. But they do, and it seems to be the most educated folk that buy into it.

Agreeing with Bob's twisted surmising about motives and where the idea comes from in the first place was ascribing Satanic motivation.

[BobRyan]

You make a good point Bob, It shows where the idea came from in the first place. It worked with Eve, and it's still working today even among Adventists. Why would anybody among us waste their time trying to figure out and prove scientifically how we got here, instead of just taking God at his word. But they do, and it seems to be the most educated folk that buy into it.

I suppose there might be a way to "twist your comment" to make it appear as if you are saying "we must not be educated... we must not be educated ... so that we can be better Christians" -- but obviously we all know that is not what you are saying.

Clearly the reference is to the fact that the public education system is predominantly hijacked by the evolutionist agenda such that even the myths and fables of evolutionism are inserted "as if" you can not precipitate sodium chloride in a beaker without evolutionism helping you because "you cant have science with out it". The fact is that in public educational settings (like UNC Chappel Hill and NC State for example), the observer is quickly struck by the devices used to discredit the Bible in philosopy and religion classes while at the same time promoting evolutionism in Chemistry, Physics and Biology classes no matter how nonsensical those evolutionist beliefs are when compared to actual science.

Your comment noting the summary outcome of such biased agendas is very appropriate.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It's an interesting thing to me. Lots of educated people have a problem with a certain doctrine, and the question is *always* phrased as 'what's wrong with education?' Just once it'd be interesting to ask the question 'what's wrong with the doctrine?' Surely that's what would happen in any other domain of life. If there was some doctrine in science or the arts or business or whatever, and the more educated a person was the more likely s/he was to question that doctrine...

Well if you are looking for a motive as to why that seems to be a common reaction among Adventists I can give you a couple.

1. We have a lot of documentation in our denomination about "not removing one pillar" and about predictions that over time there would be efforts to deconstruct the doctrinal platform. So given that volume of literature to that effect - surely we would all expect a result as you have stated above.

2. We also have the basic concept of exegesis where the first question is not "how can this text be fixed to be in harmony with evolutionism" but the first question is "what was the background and perspective of the author no matter how huge a gap between the thinking of authors 3000 years ago vs the common writers of today".

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Tom wrote to Richard:

You are right about the word "the", but that really doesn't help as much as you seem to want to make it sound. You are still impuning those with more education. How much do you consider too much? The implication is you can't trust an educated person and the more they have the worse they are.

But you still fail to get the point that what you have written indeed does come across as ascribing motives.

______________________

Tom, education can be a blessing but more often than not it is a curse. More often than not "knowledge puffs up." (1 Cor.8:1)

"And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know." 1 Cor.8:2.

"For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you--the foolish, the weak, the base, the nothing in their own eyes--are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, that, as it is written, 'He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.'" 1 Cor.1:26-30; Jer.9:24.

In the days of Christ, among the Romans and the Greek were many who were much educated. They were very wise in their own eyes and they boasted of their knowledge and yet they despise true greatness. In the eyes of God they were fools.

Among the Jewish people there were many learned men and yet Christ who was the source of all knowledge they despise and crucified out of this world.

Is it not the same today?

What we need is true education which is implicit belief in Christ's word. This is true humility, true self-surrender. The more one is little in his own eyes, the more God sees him.

sky

[Guest]

That's right sky. Amen

[Bravus]

"more often than not [education] is a curse"

You said a mouthful there...

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

You make a good point Bob, It shows where the idea came from in the first place. It worked with Eve, and it's still working today even among Adventists. Why would anybody among us waste their time trying to figure out and prove scientifically how we got here, instead of just taking God at his word. But they do, and it seems to be the most educated folk that buy into it.

I suppose there might be a way to "twist your comment" to make it appear as if you are saying "we must not be educated... we must not be educated ... so that we can be better Christians" -- but obviously we all know that is not what you are saying.

Clearly the reference is to the fact that the public education system is predominantly hijacked by the evolutionist agenda such that even the myths and fables of evolutionism are inserted "as if" you can not precipitate sodium chloride in a beaker without evolutionism helping you because "you cant have science with out it". The fact is that in public educational settings (like UNC Chappel Hill and NC State for example), the observer is quickly struck by the devices used to discredit the Bible in philosopy and religion classes while at the same time promoting evolutionism in Chemistry, Physics and Biology classes no matter how nonsensical those evolutionist beliefs are when compared to actual science.

Your comment noting the summary outcome of such biased agendas is very appropriate.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks Bob, a little bit of discernment goes a long way.

[skyblue888]

"more often than not [education] is a curse"

You said a mouthful there...

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness;' and again, 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile. Therefore let no one glory in men." 1 Cor.3:19,20.

"Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.'" 1 Cor.3:18.

sky