logical proof for Gods existance...

[Twilight]

Consider this thought:

Everything that is made, comes from something that already existed.

The alternative is that something popped out of nothing.

Logically and scientifically we know that is not the case.

So something had to exist continually forever.

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God said "I am".

That solves the problems of origins overnight.

So the bible in Moses time, had the concept nailed down, that everything had to come from something.

That that something had to always exist.

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Now the something that everything came from logically had "Law" as one of its principles.

"Order" was inherent in matter, so that "Order" had to come from something that has always been there.

So now we have to have an original source that could always be there and had "law and order" as one of its basic principles...

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Again, Moses nailed this down, reporting of a God that was one of Law and Order.

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Then to have something that institutes Law and Order signifies planned intelligence.

Again, Moses was right.

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1. Everything came from something that was already there.

2. That something was capable of creating law and order.

3. All laws are designed and controlled indicating intelligence.

Conclusion:

Everything was created by an intelligence that has always existed.

Just as Moses said, all those years ago.

Your thoughts?

Mark

(borrowed from William Lane Craig).

[BobRyan]

Science is arguing "something popped out of nothing".

Science is in fact arguing "popped out of nothing and then expanding faster than the speed of light in the first 3 minutes of time".

So science is now getting very very comfortable with "God spoke - and it was" kinds of results for the entire universe.

They just don't like to think of it as God doing that -- they like to imagine that this kind of thing "just happens on it's own".

How fearful then they must be when they open a can of juice -- a WHOLE UNIVERSE might just "pop out"!!

How much more stable and rational the Christian view is by contrast.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Science is arguing "something popped out of nothing".

Science is in fact arguing "popped out of nothing and then expanding faster than the speed of light in the first 3 minutes of time".

So science is now getting very very comfortable with "God spoke - and it was" kinds of results for the entire universe.

They just don't like to think of it as God doing that -- they like to imagine that this kind of thing "just happens on it's own".

How fearful then they must be when they open a can of juice -- a WHOLE UNIVERSE might just "pop out"!!

How much more stable and rational the Christian view is by contrast.

in Christ,

Bob

But I think they are uncomfortable with that Bob.

I think they are trying to argue that something was always there.

That something had to be pre-existant.

Maybe some are arguing that something popped out of nothing, but the arguments I have heard of late, are the ones where "something" has always existed.

Which of course is true, it is the only logical argument.

As we know that something cannot pop out of nothing.

So something else has always been there...

We can logically deduce from that the existance of God.

Am I making much sense?

Mark

[Guest]

Yes, but God is the only thing that needed to exist forever. God can make something pop out of nothing.

[Twilight]

Yes, but God is the only thing that needed to exist forever. God can make something pop out of nothing.

But then you do not have nothing, you have God. :-)

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Science is arguing "something popped out of nothing".

Science is in fact arguing "popped out of nothing and then expanding faster than the speed of light in the first 3 minutes of time".

So science is now getting very very comfortable with "God spoke - and it was" kinds of results for the entire universe.

They just don't like to think of it as God doing that -- they like to imagine that this kind of thing "just happens on it's own".

How fearful then they must be when they open a can of juice -- a WHOLE UNIVERSE might just "pop out"!!

How much more stable and rational the Christian view is by contrast.

in Christ,

Bob

But I think they are uncomfortable with that Bob.

I think they are trying to argue that something was always there.

That something had to be pre-existant.

That was a huge battle between steady state groups and the big-bang group for a while. This was all the rage in the 40's and 50's but over time the big-bang group won out.

Fred Holye promoted the steady state idea as consistent with the Perfect Cosmological Principle. Lamaitre started the idea that things are actually expanding and that they all can be retraced back to a moment in time when the universe suddenly popped into existence.

Holye called Lamaitre's idea "the big bang" on a radio program as a derogatory term -- it has stuck.

Obviously the atheist scientists were not happy with a model that smacked of creationist "God spoke and it was" but the "science" in favor of that model was winning the day.

Funny how today they like to pretend that this is a "loss" for Christians!!

How odd.

Modern ideas go something like - "in the vaccum of nothing is a huge amount of energy".

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But I think they are uncomfortable with that Bob.

I think they are trying to argue that something was always there.

That something had to be pre-existant.

[/quote']

That was a huge battle between steady state groups and the big-bang group for a while. This was all the rage in the 40's and 50's but over time the big-bang group won out.

Fred Holye promoted the steady state idea as consistent with the Perfect Cosmological Principle. Lamaitre started the idea that things are actually expanding and that they all can be retraced back to a moment in time when the universe suddenly popped into existence.

Holye called Lamaitre's idea "the big bang" on a radio program as a derogatory term -- it has stuck.

Obviously the atheist scientists were not happy with a model that smacked of creationist "God spoke and it was" but the "science" in favor of that model was winning the day.

Funny how today they like to pretend that this is a "loss" for Christians!!

How odd.

Modern ideas go something like - "in the vaccum of nothing is a huge amount of energy".

in Christ,

Bob

So now the favourite is something popped out of nothing?