Why I have a firm position on polyurethane Spray Foam.

[olger]

I remember the first time I heard of the stuff. It was 1981 and I was at the Henderson Road Wendy's restaurant and a crew was working on the roof. They were spraying a material on the roof out of a specially heated hose and a big proportioner machine. Cool..

The stuff expanded and cured in about 30-seconds and you could walk on it in about one minute. I kept climbing the ladder and peeking over the edge of the roof. They invited me on up. I watched and was intrigued.

Four years later I started a roofing business (part time). Then one year later (1985) I started my own full-time business, and bought my first foam machine with a partner. A Graco Foam-Cat 200. Man, we foamed everything in sight that first year. Some of it actually worked.

The first winter was hard. No work and very little money. I actually pawned my grandfather's prize shotgun (that he had given me) to pay the electric bill. We got down to our last two cans of green beans, but pressed on by faith and hope. Nancy & I made a pact that as long as we had $50 to our name we were doing ok. I can tell you that we dropped well below that threshold several times. Spring finally came, and with it renewed hope. My work was 95% commercial roofing and 5% foam insulation.

Two years later (1987) Eric & I dissolved the partnership and I bought out Climate Control Systems from Marion Indiana. I was kind of scared because it was a lot of money, but I believed in the product and clung to that faith and worked hard. It paid off. The next seven years were tremendous as we gained many new customers & experience. I worked by myself a lot of the time.

In 1994 I paid off the last loan from Climate Control and we were completely in the black.

From that point on we added more equipment and vehicles and did quite well.

Foam insulation finally began to come into its own around 1995. Prior to that time, people would call and I would introduce them to the product. They would be curious. Today, they call our office and they know all about it. They want to know "How much?" and "when"?

The materials have survived the onslaught of the EPA-greenies who declared a private war on fluorocarbon in 1993. That resulted in the best blowing agent ever (R-11) being outlawed. Replaced with 141b, the new foams had quirks and habits that took us two years to learn, and after that we were foaming like normal. Then, in 2005 the Ganggreens came back for another drive-by looting and declared 141b to be illegal. The foam industry went from 5-major suppliers to only one (Honeywell). Hello monopoly. The price increased 45% in the next year as the new 245fa foams came out. Again there were quirks and habits that had to be learned, but we fought our way through the learning curve and did quite well. The new foams work well. I don't like them Ganggreens one bit, but I try to love them. It ain't easy sometimes - empathy maybe.

So here we are 25-years later, and we have four state-of the art machines and a 9000 ft2 shop. Spray foam insulation is taking the insulation market by storm and the outlook is off the charts - partly because it saves people 40-50% on their energy costs for their home. Commerical roofing is down to 50% of our business, but because the gross income has risen well, the totals are still higher each year.

That is why I have a firm position on spray foam insulation (in case you were wondering).

`ol Ger

[Bravus]

Very cool (and inspiring) story - thanks for sharing it!

[Dr. Shane]

Sine I do live in a hurricane zone, I am tempted to tear off my drywall and blow my wall cavities with polyurethane foam. I got a price of about $1.25/SF of wall. It sounds tempting.

[Amelia]

Can you make a house all of foam? :)

[Guest]

I don't like them gang greens either.

[Amelia]

I thought gangs only came in red and blue?

[olger]

Shane, I recommend only closed-cell foam in hurricane prone areas. FEMA agrees. $1.25 must be an open-cell price. Go with closed cell and when the weather gets 105° you can sit back and say "Yeah!" 2.5" is sufficient.

Ameliar -- yes. Been done in Gatlinburg, and in Canada. Usually a dome ballon is inflated and the foam is sprayed on the ballon (which is then deflated). They cut the windows out with a chain saw (coool).

Richard - pagan animistic/spiritists they are. GangGreens as we say on the farm.

Bonus for Ameliar

g

[Bravus]

I like being able to go outside without getting skin cancer, though, because since the 1990 Montreal Protocol the CFCs in the upper atmosphere are decreasing and the hole in the ozone layer over Antarctica that was extending to the south of Australia is healing itself... I'm sorry to hear that that process caused costs and harms in the industry, but it's actually a major success story for human life and health. Oh yeah, and CFCs are also worse greenhouse gases than carbon dioxide. Like it or not, Gerry, you've already done your bit on climate change. Guess that means you can keep riding that trailbike guilt-free.

[Dr. Shane]

I will have to check if it was closed cell or not, it should have been. He told me that after doing it most people have to downsize their central air units. What is a SF cost for walls in Ohio?

[GreatLakesGramma]

I have a firm position on polyurethane foam too. None of it will EVER be put in my house.

[phkrause]

Nice Olger, praise the Lord. Thanks for sharing.

pk

[olger]

Shane you can expect .90-1.10 per board foot installed. $2.49 for 2.5" (our rates).

Open cell is .37-.50 per board foot. It has no strength and only half the r-value. What was the name brand of the material?

g

[olger]

I have a firm position on polyurethane foam too. None of it will EVER be put in my house.

Why not Gramm?

g

[olger]

David ol Buddy. The chlorine molecule is heavier than air - a little tidbit that is known by chemists.

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

-H. L. Mencken.

`oG

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

I have a firm position on polyurethane foam too. None of it will EVER be put in my house.

Why not Gramm?

g

I've already been poisoned by polyurethane fumes once. It took 18 months and a small fortune in medical bills to recover from it, but I remain seriously chemically sensitive. I also know someone who nearly died from outgassing chemicals in a new mobile home.

I do not want to ever go through that again. The next time might kill me.

[olger]

Gramm. Sprayed polyurethane foam is an inert substance. It does give off some fumes during application that dissipate within 2-minutes.

What year were you exposed to polyurethane fumes and how did it happen? The year will help me determine the possible type.

I do know there is a tripolymer "foam" in Canada that has been banned in two provinces.

Ps. Most mobile homes use fiberglass in their walls. Was your friend in a brand new trailer?

regards,

g

[Bravus]

Not sure how the chlorine molecule being heavier than air is really relevant, since I was talking about chlorofluorocarbons (which, having a carbon atom and some fluorine atoms as well as chlorine are *much* heavier than air molecules). Are you claiming that therefore there are no CFCs in the upper atmosphere? That would be a bizarre claim to make.

[olger]

The intent of this thread is not to celebrate the left's lucrative fascination with global warming.

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

-H. L. Mencken.

Foam good,

g

[Outta Here]

I'm thinking of eating a raw foods diet. Good for global warming.

:)

[olger]

:)

[Bravus]

I absolutely agree with 'foam good': dramatically cutting energy usage is one of the most important steps in addressing climate change. Face it, Gerry - like it or not, you're one of the good guys.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Gramm. What year were you exposed to polyurethane fumes and how did it happen?

Ps. Most mobile homes use fiberglass in their walls. Was your friend in a brand new trailer?

g

I was poisoned by fumes from polyurethane floor finish in 1994. We have a close friend who was in the wood flooring business back then, who gave us a good deal on the flooring, for the addition we built onto my grandparent's tiny house, when we bought it from the estate. We had it done during their off season, in the dead of winter, so we could not open windows to air out the house while it was curing. I had the doorway to the addition blocked with thick cardboard, but some fumes came into the rest of the house anyway. We couldn't afford to stay in a motel or anything, but if I had it to do over, I would do that anyway. It would have cost a lot less than the medical bills.

My acquaintance was poisoned by fumes in a brand-new double-wide mobile home at about the same time. Back then, most mobile homes were loaded with toxic materials.

No matter who says it's safe, I still wouldn't want foam insulation in my house. The church we were members of for years put in new carpeting in 1997. The contractor used enviro-safe glue. It was supposed to be safe, but it still made me sick within minutes of entering the building. We had to leave that church and move our membership elsewhere. Our daughter married in that church in 1998, and even though we went early and I opened all the windows, I was sick for 3 days after the wedding. I am not willing to risk someone else being wrong, especially when it has to do with my home.

But foam insulation isn't an issue I need to be concerned with anyway, as our house is already very well insulated, with fiberglass.

[olger]

Now I can't sleep..

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

Gramm. What year were you exposed to polyurethane fumes and how did it happen?

Ps. Most mobile homes use fiberglass in their walls. Was your friend in a brand new trailer?

g

I was poisoned by fumes from polyurethane floor finish in 1994. We have a close friend who was in the wood flooring business back then, who gave us a good deal on the flooring, for the addition we built onto my grandparent's tiny house, when we bought it from the estate. We had it done during their off season, in the dead of winter, so we could not open windows to air out the house while it was curing. I had the doorway to the addition blocked with thick cardboard, but some fumes came into the rest of the house anyway. We couldn't afford to stay in a motel or anything, but if I had it to do over, I would do that anyway. It would have cost a lot less than the medical bills.

My acquaintance was poisoned by fumes in a brand-new double-wide mobile home at about the same time. Back then, most mobile homes were loaded with toxic materials.

No matter who says it's safe, I still wouldn't want foam insulation in my house. The church we were members of for years put in new carpeting in 1997. The contractor used enviro-safe glue. It was supposed to be safe, but it still made me sick within minutes of entering the building. We had to leave that church and move our membership elsewhere. Our daughter married in that church in 1998, and even though we went early and I opened all the windows, I was sick for 3 days after the wedding. I am not willing to risk someone else being wrong, especially when it has to do with my home.

But foam insulation isn't an issue I need to be concerned with anyway, as our house is already very well insulated, with fiberglass.

Aha. It sounds like you are one of the rare percentage of Americans who are chemically sensitized. Agreed, do not apply solvent-borne coatings in the winter in your home--if you can avoid it. Your polyurethane finish was probably an aromatic, be glad it wasn't an aliphatic. Most people don't experience long-term discomfort from polyurethane esters, sorry that you did.

If you got sick from water-based carpet bonding adhesive, you have a very high level of sensitivity. How do you get along around fresh latex paints?

Sorry to hear about your friend, when did she pass away?

Foam insulation is an inert substance - it don't do nothin after it cures. In, fact it is used as a barrier against radon gas - since it is an approved air barrier. Fiberglass..? Oh boy. Makes a great air filter.. (don't read the labels on the bag). In 10-15 years you won't see a lot of it around. Fiberglass companies are buying up foam companies right & left. They've seen the writing on the wall, and it's good writing for us consumers.

Carry on my wayward Gramm,

g

[GreatLakesGramma]

Sorry to hear about your friend, when did she pass away?

I said she almost died. She is still alive.

I have no problems at all with latex paint. My mother is deathly allergic to latex, but I have no trouble with it at all.

I find it hard to believe that glue was water-based. It sure didn't smell water-based. Whenever I'd see someone from church in town, in the following months, they'd ask me if we could come back, because there was no smell, so it must be OK. But any time I went there for some reason, I could still smell it very plainly. Someone just asked me again a couple weeks ago, but I don't want to go back there anyway.