Why take time to expose false doctrines such as evolutionism?

[BobRyan]

This question has been asked in the past two weeks in various forms.

In the Bible we find that 1Timothy 1 and Titus 1 both have Paul giving instructions to his contemporaries about dealing with false doctrines that arise among God's people.

Here is an interesting case where Ellen White also speaks to the same subject.

=========================================

Quote:

Let there be war

"In our day, as in ancient times, there is disagreeable work to be done in reproving sin. In this work, God uses men as his instruments,--men of determined purpose, whom no threat or peril can intimidate, no hardship turn aside from the path of duty,--men who will never forget their sacred commission as servants of the Most High. The Lord calls for men to act promptly, with the courage of heroes, and the firmness and faith of martyrs, to tear down the idolatrous images that have usurped his place in the minds of men, and meet the armed force of wrong on battle fields. But in all this there is no excuse for any to indulge in harshness or severity to gratify their own wrong feelings. "God wants men whom he can use to his own glory, either to bear reproof and execute justice, or, with a heart full of piety and benevolence, to carry light into darkened homes, to speak peace to the troubled soul, and point the sinner to the pardoning love of Christ. The great want of this age is men fitted to do God's will,--men who will listen with praying hearts for God's words, and will hasten to obey his voice." ST, January 6, 1881.

"It required a desperate struggle for those who would be faithful to stand firm against the deceptions and abominations which were disguised in sacerdotal garments and introduced into the church. The Bible was not accepted as the standard of faith. The doctrine of religious freedom was termed heresy, and its upholders were hated and proscribed.

"After a long and severe conflict, the faithful few decided to dissolve all union with the apostate church if she still refused to free herself from falsehood and idolatry. They saw that separation was an absolute necessity if they would obey the word of God. They dared not tolerate errors fatal to their own souls, and set an example which would imperil the faith of their children and children's children. To secure peace and unity they were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God; but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war. Well would it be for the church and the world if the principles that actuated those steadfast souls were revived in the hearts of God's professed people." GC 45, 46.

The "pluralism" that many argue for today in the realm of things like evolutionism would destroy Fundamental beliefs 1 and 3 and 4,5,6,7,8 and 20 among others. (Already detailed on another thread beyond all doubt).

Hence - the reason to stand up in favor of the creation model found in the Word of God. (in that example).

Of course that is not the only false doctrine where "pluralism" and "unity in diversity" is being used as a opening wedge. But it is a good "example" to illustrate the point.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Yes but what if you are in one of our teaching institutions and it is one of your highly respected professors teaching error contrary to the doctrines of the church??

Quote:

No longer consent to listen

For years our physicians have been trained to think that they must not give expression to sentiments that differ from those of their chief. [REFERENCE IS HERE MADE TO DR. J. H. KELLOGG, FOR MANY YEARS THE MEDICAL SUPERINTENDENT OF THE BATTLE CREEK SANITARIUM.--COMPILERS.] O that they had broken the yoke! O that they had called sin by its right name! Then they would not be regarded in the heavenly courts as men who, though bearing weighty responsibilities, have failed of speaking the truth in reproof of that which has been in disobedience to God's Word. {1SM 196.2}

Physicians, have you been doing the Master's business in ]listening to fanciful and spiritualistic interpretations of the Scriptures, interpretations which undermine the foundations of our faith, and holding your peace? God says, "Neither will I be with you any more, unless you awake, and vindicate your Redeemer." {1SM 196.3}

Sophistries That Undermine the Pillars

My message to you is: No longer consent to listen without protest to the perversion of truth. Unmask the pretentious sophistries which, if received, will lead ministers and physicians and medical missionary workers to ignore the truth. Every one is now to stand on his guard. God calls upon men and women to take their stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel. I have been instructed to warn our people; for many are in danger of receiving theories and sophistries that undermine the foundation pillars of the faith. {1SM 196.4}

...

Our physicians have lost a great deal out of their lives because they have seen wrong transactions and heard wrong words spoken, and seen wrong principles followed, and have not spoken in reproof, for fear that they would be repulsed. {1SM 197.2}

[Guest]

You are a watchman on the wall Bob.

[BobRyan]

Thank you for those kind words Richard.

I believe that the "was moses stupid" thread over at "origins" has indicated that the creationists that have been creating so much active dialoge on that board area are no longer welcomed.

I think they prefer a quiet calm ... <crickets...crickets...> experience that they had prior to the open flood of creationists commenting there.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

On this thread -

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post273159

Bravus "once again" posts on his own views of origins -- and I make the mistake of 'responding' as if he is posting as a member (since his view of origins cannot possibly be a "moderator action" for all members of the board to take).

My response.

Or it is "evolution is in fact THE BEST explanation for what we see around us and it is perfectly consistent with what we find in scripture - that is for certain".

Or it is "God could have done anything he wanted -- so who knows what the answer is".

Or it is "I have no problem at all with a 7 day literal creation week for all of life - but it was way more than 6,000 years ago"

ok.

[BobRyan]

In any case - since THIS area of the board is friendly to both creationists and evolutionists - I would urge the creationists here not to post their views on the origins section of the board so that evolutionists there can have an area where they can go back to the way it was before so many new creationists were allowed to post there.

That way if evolutionists really want to discuss this topic with creationists knowing that the creationists will not be hounded off the board -- those evolutionists can come here and give their views knowing that not everyone here will agree but they also will not be tossed off the board.

I have noticed in general on other boards that the creationist forums always tend to be the most tolerant and open even though they also will be the place where the strongest opposition (in comment and opinioni) to evolutionist doctrine will be found.

That seems to be holding up here as well.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

The error of evolution is fatal to the soul (as EGW says). As for me and my house we will call it for what it is ---> A delusion from the enemy.

g

[olger]

Faith in naturalistic evolution leads one to ultimately jettison faith in God.

“Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus’ earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing!” Bozarth, G. Richard, “The Meaning of Evolution,” American Atheist (February 1978), p. 30

In their moment of trial, they call for truth only to hear the haunting echo of emptiness where their faith in God once was.

That the theory of evolution is atheism:

"First, it shocks the common sense of unsophisticated men to be told that the whale and the humming-bird, man and the mosquito, are derived from the same source. Not that the whale was derived out of the hummingbird, or man out of the mosquito, but that both are derived by a slow process of variations continued through countless millions of years. Such is the theory with its scientific feathers plucked off...

A second remark is the theory (evolution) in question cannot be true, because it is founded on the assumption of an impossibility. It assumes that matter does the work of mind. This is an impossibility and an absurdity in the judgment of all men except materialists; and materialists are, ever have been, and ever must be, a mere handful among men, whether educated or uneducated...

Thirdly, the system is thoroughly atheistic, and therefore cannot possibly stand. God has revealed His existence and His government of the world so clearly and so authoritatively, that any philosophical or scientific speculations inconsistent with those truths are like cobwebs in the track of a tornado. They offer no sensible resistance. The mere naturalist, the man devoted so exclusively to the study of nature as to believe in nothing but natural causes, is not able to understand the strength with which moral and religious convictions take hold of the minds of men. These convictions however, are the strongest, the most ennobling, and the most dangerous for any class of men to disregard or ignore.

In saying that the system is atheistic, it is not said that Mr. Darwin is an atheist. Nor is it meant that every one who adopts the theory does it in an atheistic sense...His theory is that hundreds or thousands of millions of years ago God called a living germ, or living germ, into existence, and that since that time God has no more to do with the universe than if He did not exist. This is atheism to all intents and purposes, because it leaves the soul as entirely without God, without a Father, Helper, or Ruler, as the doctrine of Epicurus or of Comte." Charles Hodge, Princeton Theologian, Systematic Theology, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co, 1975, vol. 2, p. 15

olger

[Guest]

hmm so that now gets translated to "kick out the creationists??"

Notice that on THIS board - the Theology board - ALL views ARE posted and there is NO "kick out the evolutionists" threads on this section of the board? There is also no "Kick out the creationists" posts here so those evolutionists that do post here have to endure an open playing field.

Bob, We don't even kick out those that hate Paul, and despise Ellen White. We are even asked not to use Paul or EGW, when speaking to them. Of course that will never fly, but we don't kick them out.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

hmm so that now gets translated to "kick out the creationists??"

Notice that on THIS board - the Theology board - ALL views ARE posted and there is NO "kick out the evolutionists" threads on this section of the board? There is also no "Kick out the creationists" posts here so those evolutionists that do post here have to endure an open playing field.

Bob, We don't even kick out those that hate Paul, and despise Ellen White. We are even asked not to use Paul or EGW, when speaking to them. Of course that will never fly, but we don't kick them out.

It's nice to know I'm not being kicked out of the forum for asking questions that try to isolate truth from lies. However, it is a discredit to the whole forum to have been told in no uncertain terms that if I keep speaking of Paul or EGW in anything less than glowing terms that I will be passed over and ignored. I don't see the difference.

Apropo of nothing whatever I don't believe that I have ever said that I 'hate' Paul and 'dispise' EGW. I have only said that I personally don't uses them as proof of truth. I have also said that you may use them any way you see fit as long as you don't try to make me acknowledge them as a valid source for truth. If I didn't make that plain before I hope I did now.

The conflict between staunch Creationists and die hard evolutionists stems from their individual perspectives on how truth is derived. For both extremes of this argument the term 'Creation Scientist' is an oxymoron; a pure contradiction in terms. The scientist believes deep down that to believe in any form of Biblical creation dilutes the evidence coming out of the ground. The Creationist believes that a scientist that is a Christian (note: NOT a Christian Science practitioner) must believe the Biblical account by faith alone, irrespective of hard evidence coming out of the ground, and if they don't they absolutely cannot be called a Christian.

There is a solution to this impasse that would satisfy both camps. If you really want to know ask Wayfinder.

[Guest]

I don't pass you over MM.

[Guest]

Maybe not you, but there are some on here who do seem to despise EGW.

[Guest]

Hey Stan, What happened to the tool bar at the bottom? I can't see my tool bar!

[Guest]

How can you run more than one thread at a time, with no tool bar?

[John317]

Richard, check to make sure you are logged in.

[Guest]

I'm logged in.

[Guest]

I fixed it. Never mind. LOL

[John317]

It's nice to know I'm not being kicked out of the forum for asking questions that try to isolate truth from lies. However, it is a discredit to the whole forum to have been told in no uncertain terms that if I keep speaking of Paul or EGW in anything less than glowing terms that I will be passed over and ignored. I don't see the difference.

Speaking as moderator:

The rule is that threads are not to be hijacked in order to attack Paul, James, Mark, Luke, Peter, etc. There's a private thread that has been designed for the purpose of attacking Paul, etc.

If members have questions or objections to this decision, please use PMs and not public posts.

[BobRyan]

It's nice to know I'm not being kicked out of the forum for asking questions that try to isolate truth from lies. However, it is a discredit to the whole forum to have been told in no uncertain terms that if I keep speaking of Paul or EGW in anything less than glowing terms that I will be passed over and ignored. I don't see the difference.

[Musicman1228]

Bob,

I am not speaking of scientists outside of the Christian world. In that world scientists view their brothers that are Christian as inferior in intellect because they espouse a 'faith' outside of the faith of straight science. In reality both those inside and outside of Christianity hold to paradigms predisposed to an attitude of either all or nothing. Many Adventist geo-scientists and paliobiologists are evolutionists during the week and creationists on Sabbath.

When I was a child my father who was a physician would take us to the annual minister/doctor conference at the Hotel Del Coronado. It usually was a long weekend event beginning on Friday morning and ending Sunday afternoon. One of the most memorable things I saw while there occurred one Sabbath afternoon while I was going through one of the interior hall ways on my way to the beach. My mom was taking my sisters and brother out to hunt for shells. On our way we passed a pastor and a doctor (you would probably recognize the minister if I named him) arguing about something. I don't know what it was but they were nose to nose and quite loud. Later I asked my dad what would cause that kind of outburst and I remember him telling me that it was nothing but a disagreement over what really caused the plagues in Egypt. Apparently one of the sessions was about whether God used natural events to cause certain miracles to happen.

This creation vs. evolution and science vs. theology thing has been going on for years in other ways and other forms. It is not new. One would think that by now we would have figured out a way of bringing both sides of the science vs. faith argument together.

[olger]

Three monkeys sat on a coconut tree,

Discussing things as they're said to be.

Said one to the other,

"Now listen you two,

There's a certain rumor

That can't be true ...

That man descended from our noble race.

The very idea is sure to disgrace."

"No monkey ever deserted his wife,

Starved her babies and ruined her life.

And you've never known another monk,

To leave her babies with others to bunk,

Or pass them on from one to another."

"And another thing you will never see ...

Is a monk build a fence around a coconut tree;

And let the coconuts go to waste,

Forbidding all the other monks to taste."

"Why, if I put a fence around this tree,

Starvation would force you to steal from me."

"And here's something else a monk won't do ...

Go out at night and get on a stew;

Or use a gun or club or knife,

To take some other monkey's life."

"Yes, man descended ... ornery cuss,

But, brother, ... he didn't descend from us!

[Lutz13]

Three monkeys sat on a coconut tree,

Discussing things as they're said to be.

Said one to the other,

"Now listen you two,

There's a certain rumor

That can't be true ...

That man descended from our noble race.

The very idea is sure to disgrace."

"No monkey ever deserted his wife,

Starved her babies and ruined her life.

And you've never known another monk,

To leave her babies with others to bunk,

Or pass them on from one to another."

"And another thing you will never see ...

Is a monk build a fence around a coconut tree;

And let the coconuts go to waste,

Forbidding all the other monks to taste."

"Why, if I put a fence around this tree,

Starvation would force you to steal from me."

"And here's something else a monk won't do ...

Go out at night and get on a stew;

Or use a gun or club or knife,

To take some other monkey's life."

"Yes, man descended ... ornery cuss,

But, brother, ... he didn't descend from us!

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I am not speaking of scientists outside of the Christian world. In that world scientists view their brothers that are Christian as inferior in intellect because they espouse a 'faith' outside of the faith of straight science. In reality both those inside and outside of Christianity hold to paradigms predisposed to an attitude of either all or nothing. Many Adventist geo-scientists and paliobiologists are evolutionists during the week and creationists on Sabbath.

[BobRyan]

Paulson, Goldstein, D. Batchelor and the BRI are all coming out on this -- at that web site.

So also has Ron Wisbey -- president of La Sierra Univ (LSU) come out trying to first cover-up and then defend the evolutionist practices of his school.

But it is ALL comin' to light now!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Bob,

I am not speaking of scientists outside of the Christian world. In that world scientists view their brothers that are Christian as inferior in intellect because they espouse a 'faith' outside of the faith of straight science. In reality both those inside and outside of Christianity hold to paradigms predisposed to an attitude of either all or nothing. Many Adventist geo-scientists and paliobiologists are evolutionists during the week and creationists on Sabbath.

Educatetruth.com is exposing that problem at La Sierra and other colleges. The result will be a drastic drop in enrolement--- or else evolutionists are about to get pink slips.

Quote:

This creation vs. evolution and science vs. theology thing has been going on for years in other ways and other forms. It is not new. One would think that by now we would have figured out a way of bringing both sides of the science vs. faith argument together.

correction; The creation vs evolution debate had not even entered the SDA church until the 1990's. But by 1994 we had a huge brush fire on that subject - and now it is a U.S based inferno because it was not dealt with decisively in the 90's.

It was lack of action after the 1994 report that brought us where we are today.

"Six days you shall labor...for in SIX days the Lord MADE" leaves no room at all for evolutionism.

Bottom line - want to teach evolutionism in school? Find a different denomination's school to spread that junk-science religion.

I think some administrators and class-room evolutionists thought they could get by with murder for the past 15 years. The day is coming when the deeds they did in the darkness will come to light.

Thanks to Shane Hilde and some brave students willing to stand up to it.

www.EducateTruth.com

in Christ,

Bob

Amen Brother