Ellen Whites doctrinal positions - did it ever change?

[epaminondas]

"The Jews suffered pogrom after pogrom, for, so some say, crucifying Jesus."

That is the kind of statement that has made the Jewish people hate Jesus and christianity the more, and is why they are very hard to work with in accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

pk

It is not the statement they object to. In fact, most of them will agree with that. They object to the fact that crucifying Jesus was used as an excuse to persecute them. And in the end, they mostly object to the persecution. I worked with Jews and had Jewish friends.

They won't accept Jesus because most of them are very secular. My closest Jewish friend even ate pork. Many of them don't even believe what Judaism tells them. They have their feasts as part of their Jewish culture.

Among us, too, it is harder to do missionary work among secular modern man. You are more likely to convert someone running around in a loin cloth than an Aussie in modern attire. Unless of course, you offered him a beer.

[Guest]

That's a new one. How could the SDA church have prevented the two world wars?

It's not new. If the church had spread the Three angels message to the world, like it was supposed to, the Lord could have returned in the 1890s and time would not have lasted long enough for those wars. Instead they rejected the light that was sent in 1888 through Jones and Waggoner. Righteousness by Faith.

The Work Might Have Been Done.--Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people in giving to the world the message of mercy, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth, and the saints would have received their welcome into the city of God.-- Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 450. (1900) {Ev 694.3}

Check this out: http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/279883/1.html

[phkrause]

Richard I've also heard that if the Jews had of excepted Jesus when he came the first time, we would not have been here another 2000 years!

pk

[Guest]

I'm glad they didn't then. Or we wouldn't be here.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gregory Matthews

John317 said:

Quote:

At the Sabbath Bible Conferences in the late 1840s, the men would study the Bible and then come to conclusions on certain doctrines. Ellen White was not part of these discussions, although she was present, but she had no understanding of what was being presented or said. After they had studied the Bible and when the men still couldn't arrive at a consensus, Ellen White would be given a vision from God which helped them arrive at the truth. So in that case, the SOP was used to help the early Adventists establish some of our doctrines.

I have some reservations in regard to the above comment.

An earllier post made reference to R. W. Olsen of the White Estate. (And also reference to the LXX.) Olsen had he PnD in New Testament and would likely be considered by many to be an expert in SDA history. He was clearly conservative, and a professor of mine at PUC prior to going to the White Estate.

Hey, that's remarkable. I had him in SOP at PUC also, in 1974. I heard him give his farewell talk in chapel before leaving for the White Estate. He now (at least as of about a year ago) lives only a few miles from me in Cherry Valley.

Quote:

I Believe that he would have taken issue with your characteriaation of ht Sabbath Conferences. It was his view that EGWs mind was often locked, so to speak untill the so-called "Bretheren" had reached agreement. Then he would susggest that she would agree with the decision that had been reached. But, she did not contribute to the decision.

Olsen was a firm advocate of the position that the SDA Church derived its doctrines from the Bible and not from EGW.

Ellen White would only be given visions at the conferences if after study the brethren still could not agree. The vision would be either that the brethren needed to study further, or, as you say, cause her to agree with the decision. All I am saying is that the visions of Mrs. White were relevant to the doctrinal development of the church during those early years, but at the same time, they certainly did not take the place of Bible study.

It's well known that Ellen White's views strongly influenced the SDA church to move from an anti-Trinitarian view to that of acceptance of the Trinity. It's a doctrine clearly (I'm convinced) found in Scripture, but due to the spiritual background of many of our leaders, the church had a struggle accepting the Trinity. Without Ellen White, I don't think there's any doubt that the church wouldn't have changed as it did, nor when it did. It began to change about the year that Desire of Ages was published (1898), and it didn't become thoroughly Trinitarian until the 1940s. In fact, Robert W. Olsen himself was opposed to the Trinity as late as the 1940s. Many men of influence, such as M.L. Andreasen, wrote of how they were persuaded to change their view of the Trinity on account of the writings of Ellen White.

No doubt EGW was given a clearer understanding of the "only true God" and his Son and of who the holy spirit is, but there are statements showing that she never fully accepted the trinity doctrine as now taught by the SDA church in its fundamental beliefs. Such statements in regard to the pre-existence of Jesus Christ such as Proverbs 8:22-30 where Christ is speaking of Himself in these verses. And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting. . . . When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him." Proverbs 8:22-30. {PP 34.1} and "the existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured in figures" LHU 17:3 and

"Although we may try to reason in regard to our Creator, how long He has had existence, where evil first entered into our world, and all these things, we may reason about them until we fall down faint and exhausted with the research when there is an infinity beyond." 7BC 919.5 and "the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted" Youth Instructor 7 July 1898.

and "Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent"

14MR 23

[Guest]

Dr. Waite, These statements go a long way in causing me to believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. I was studying this a while back, but I quit because I started thinking that maybe this is too high for me. Also I don't believe it is a salvational issue at this point. But I would like to know the truth.

A friend of mine in Australia, Adrian Ebens wrote a manuscript called "The Return Of Elijah". It is about this very subject, and shows very convincingly the the trinity doctrine is wrong. His preaching credentials were taken from him after he stated his new belief to the conference.

Here is a link to his new website and forum. You can also download "The Return Of Elijah" there. You have to sign up to be a member in order to get the manuscript. It makes for some very interesting study.

http://www.maranathamedia.com/site/

[Gerr]

Dr. Waite, These statements go a long way in causing me to believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. I was studying this a while back, but I quit because I started thinking that maybe this is too high for me. Also I don't believe it is a salvational issue at this point. But I would like to know the truth.

A friend of mine in Australia, Adrian Ebens wrote a manuscript called "The Return Of Elijah". It is about this very subject, and shows very convincingly the the trinity doctrine is wrong. His preaching credentials were taken from him after he stated his new belief to the conference.

Here is a link to his new website and forum. You can also download "The Return Of Elijah" there. You have to sign up to be a member in order to get the manuscript. It makes for some very interesting study.

G: Another heresy from Australia? What are they cooking up down under? :) Did you really say the above Richard? Even with all his weird theology, Robert, to my recollection, never questioned the Trinity. What do you call this 2-God godhead, duonity? Bienity?

[Guest]

There is a principle by which is guaranteed to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. And that is "Contempt prior to investigation".

[John317]

No doubt EGW was given a clearer understanding of the "only true God" and his Son and of who the holy spirit is, but there are statements showing that she never fully accepted the trinity doctrine as now taught by the SDA church in its fundamental beliefs.

It's essential to consider everything she wrote on the subject, just as it is essential to study everything the Bible has to say on any particular subject. One of the reason that Christians are divided in many issues, such as the state of the dead, is that they often only consider certain verses and not the whole Bible.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Such statements in regard to the pre-existence of Jesus Christ such as Proverbs 8:22-30 where Christ is speaking of Himself in these verses.

But remember that Prov. 8: 22-30 is about wisdom, who is described as a woman who lives with another woman named Prudence. Obviously Christ is not a woman, so it's impossible to make everything in that chapter apply to Christ.

Christ is the wisdom of God, but the wisdom of Prov. 1 to 9 is not synonymous with Christ. Again, wisdom is a woman and Christ is no woman.

Another important point to consider is that if we take wisdom and Christ to be one and the same Person, then there was a time when God did not possess wisdom; but of course that is nonsense. God has always possessed wisdom.

Originally Posted By: Dr.Waite

And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting. . . .

What is meant by "possessed" and "set up" in this context? Does it necessarily refer to the beginning of the existence of wisdom, or Christ? If we take it that way, it would mean that there was a time when God did not have wisdom.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him." Proverbs 8:22-30. {PP 34.1} and "the existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured in figures" LHU 17:3 and

"Although we may try to reason in regard to our Creator, how long He has had existence, where evil first entered into our world, and all these things, we may reason about them until we fall down faint and exhausted with the research when there is an infinity beyond." 7BC 919.5 and "the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted" Youth Instructor 7 July 1898.

Some people mistakenly take the above quote to mean that Ellen White is saying the Holy Spirit does not have an independent existence or that Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same being. But if we study the Bible and the rest of what Ellen White says, we will see that this is false.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

and "Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent"

14MR 23

Let's look closely at this sentence:

"The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent."

"Himself" is a reflexive pronoun, not referring to Christ but to the Holy Spirit. It is not saying, "The Holy Spirit is Christ..." It is saying that the Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent of humanity, which Christ is not. Christ is forever a man.

The phrase "the Holy Spirit is Himself divested..." would be like saying, "The President is himself a powerful world leader..."

Christ must send the Holy Spirit to be with us because Christ can't be personally in every place like the Holy Spirit can be. Therefore, through the Holy Spirit, Christ is able to be present in all places because His personal representative, the Holy Spirit, is Omnipresent.

Ellen White makes many clear statements showing that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not one and the same being. She says plainly, for instance, that the Holy Spirit is "the third Person of the Godhead" (Ev. 617). The Godhead consists of Three Persons, and Christ is not two Persons. He is one Person, and the Holy Spirit is a distinct Personality. The Godhead does not have a beginning. Ellen White speaks of the "eternal Godhead." When the Bible refers to God as "from everlasting to everlasting," it means that God has no beginning. Christ is Himself God. John 1: 1-3; 2 Peter 1: 1; Luke 20: 28; Col. 2:9. The Holy Spirit is Himself God. Acts 5: 3-4. The Father is Himself God.

It's important to let the clear statements decide these issues and not base our teachings on statements that are less clear or on passages such as Provbers 8: 22. Jehovah Witnesses do the same thing with that verse: they make Christ a created being because they believe it is saying Christ was created, a false conclusion.

But Ellen White says, "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived." She also says Christ is "eternal, self-existent." See Evangelism pp 615-617.

"There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." Ev. 615.

NOTE: "three living persons," "heavenly trio," "these three great powers will cooperate" with us. Such expressions can only be used if Christ and the Holy Spirit ARE NOT the same Person.

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption." CH 222

NOTE: At the time of the Fall, the Holy Spirit and Christ were distinct and separate Persons who "gave themselves" to working out the plan of salvation. This couldn't be said if Christ and the Holy Spirit were one and the same Person.

[John317]

G: Another heresy from Australia?

Sadly, I'm afraid the answer is Yes.

[skyblue888]

I'm glad they didn't then. Or we wouldn't be here.

Richard, I'm sure you're not glad that 2,000 years of much suffering were added. And one could say that it is better that Jesus delays His coming for if He came now He would prevent future generations from having the privilege of accepting Him and be saved in the eternal kingdom.

When is it okay for Him to come then? hehe

sky

[skyblue888]

Richard I've also heard that if the Jews had of excepted Jesus when he came the first time, we would not have been here another 2000 years!

pk

I agree with you pk.

sky

[skyblue888]

It's essential to consider everything she wrote on the subject, just as it is essential to study everything the Bible has to say on any particular subject. One of the reason that Christians are divided in many issues, such as the state of the dead, is that they often only consider certain verses and not the whole Bible.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Such statements in regard to the pre-existence of Jesus Christ such as Proverbs 8:22-30 where Christ is speaking of Himself in these verses.

But remember that Prov. 8: 22-30 is about wisdom, who is described as a woman who lives with another woman named Prudence. Obviously Christ is not a woman, so it's impossible to make everything in that chapter apply to Christ.

Christ is the wisdom of God, but the wisdom of Prov. 1 to 9 is not synonymous with Christ. Again, wisdom is a woman and Christ is no woman.

Another important point to consider is that if we take wisdom and Christ to be one and the same Person, then there was a time when God did not possess wisdom; but of course that is nonsense. God has always possessed wisdom.

Originally Posted By: Dr.Waite

And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting. . . .

What is meant by "possessed" and "set up" in this context? Does it necessarily refer to the beginning of the existence of wisdom, or Christ? If we take it that way, it would mean that there was a time when God did not have wisdom.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him." Proverbs 8:22-30. {PP 34.1} and "the existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured in figures" LHU 17:3 and

"Although we may try to reason in regard to our Creator, how long He has had existence, where evil first entered into our world, and all these things, we may reason about them until we fall down faint and exhausted with the research when there is an infinity beyond." 7BC 919.5 and "the Father and the Son alone are to be exalted" Youth Instructor 7 July 1898.

Some people mistakenly take the above quote to mean that Ellen White is saying the Holy Spirit does not have an independent existence or that Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same being. But if we study the Bible and the rest of what Ellen White says, we will see that this is false.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

and "Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent"

14MR 23[/quote']

Let's look closely at this sentence:

"The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent."

"Himself" is a reflexive pronoun, not referring to Christ but to the Holy Spirit. It is not saying, "The Holy Spirit is Christ..." It is saying that the Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent of humanity, which Christ is not. Christ is forever a man.

The phrase "the Holy Spirit is Himself divested..." would be like saying, "The President is himself a powerful world leader..."

Christ must send the Holy Spirit to be with us because Christ can't be personally in every place like the Holy Spirit can be. Therefore, through the Holy Spirit, Christ is able to be present in all places because His personal representative, the Holy Spirit, is Omnipresent.

Ellen White makes many clear statements showing that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not one and the same being. She says plainly, for instance, that the Holy Spirit is "the third Person of the Godhead" (Ev. 617). The Godhead consists of Three Persons, and Christ is not two Persons. He is one Person, and the Holy Spirit is a distinct Personality. The Godhead does not have a beginning. Ellen White speaks of the "eternal Godhead." When the Bible refers to God as "from everlasting to everlasting," it means that God has no beginning. Christ is Himself God. John 1: 1-3; 2 Peter 1: 1; Luke 20: 28; Col. 2:9. The Holy Spirit is Himself God. Acts 5: 3-4. The Father is Himself God.

It's important to let the clear statements decide these issues and not base our teachings on statements that are less clear or on passages such as Provbers 8: 22. Jehovah Witnesses do the same thing with that verse: they make Christ a created being because they believe it is saying Christ was created, a false conclusion.

But Ellen White says, "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived." She also says Christ is "eternal, self-existent." See Evangelism pp 615-617.

"There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." Ev. 615.

NOTE: "three living persons," "heavenly trio," "these three great powers will cooperate" with us. Such expressions can only be used if Christ and the Holy Spirit ARE NOT the same Person.

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption." CH 222

NOTE: At the time of the Fall, the Holy Spirit and Christ were distinct and separate Persons who "gave themselves" to working out the plan of salvation. This couldn't be said if Christ and the Holy Spirit were one and the same Person.

John317

__________________

Excellent! Praise God!

God bless.

sky