God's Judgment

[Tom Wetmore]

I've been thinking about how frequently God seems a master at taking a bad thing and making good of it. It is a turning of even the worst event and bringing good from it. Is this God's judgment at work? Is God's judgment more about setting things right than about punishing evil-doers? Is God judgment more about fixing and repairing the damage done to the victims? Is God more intent on restoration and restitution than revenge and retribution? Is it more about making good things than wiping out bad things?

[phkrause]

Some good thoughts Tom. I do believe that God is into restoration and restitution more than he is into revenge and retribution. I'd say that the wiping out of bad things is a last resort, but an unfortunate end that has to come at last.

pk

[Ellen]

Tom, I think you have some instances that have brought these thoughts to your mind. I would like to hear the example you might give.

Every time I lose some money I think, God may be putting my money where some really needy person is praying for it and my lost money is the answer to their prayers. etc.

[Kevin H]

Good points. The sader parts of the judgment is how some people, like the story of Elijah and Jesebel (who had some openess to Yahweh, but insisted on wanting to make him too much like Baal) where no matter what God did to show her that he was NOT baal and wanted to lead her into something deeper, how stubern she would be in her ways.

But also, the whole Deuteronomic history shows how people can turn blessings into curses and how God turns curses into blessings.

For example, we have a lot of stories of Calab and how Calab became a great man and how his decendents became the warlords of southern Judah, but Calab had a decendent who was a fool. This fool was offered an aliance with the warlord of norhern Judah, which would have made him king of Judah. But his foolish actions caused him to go into a psychological breakdown which lead to a physical breakdown and death and instead of his family continuing to be the warlords of southern Judah, all his possisions became united with northern Judah and thus we have the story of how David became king of Judah and rulled in Hebron for 7 years (indicating the last 5 years of Saul being the king of the northern kingdom)

But we also have curses turning to blessings. The curse on the house of Eli: Did you know that Eli's decendents were the prophetic movement of the north and that most, if not all the northern writing prophets either joined this family or were decendents of Eli? He had the curse that there would not be old men among them. Prophets have a tendency of not living long lifes, especially in the Northern Kingdom where they were not on the kings payroll.

In fact most, if not all, the curses to individuals and families in the Deuteronomic history, if you were to study them out ended up being applied to one man, Jeremiah. The purpose for God to give all these deuteronomic judgements, the purpose of all these curses were to give Jeremiah a ministry to try to help Israel avoid the captivity, how to survive in the captvity and to bless us in our studies today.

[LifeHiscost]

All God's judgments are for the betterment of His creation, especially those who were created in His image. God created Lucifer, the son of the morning, not satan the prince of darkness, made who he is now by his own choices.

And thus it is for all of God's creation. All of God's judgments are designed to facilitate His creation's entrance back into their home of glory. Only those who will not accept His judgments will fail of receiving the gifts designed specifically to lift them from the darkness that envelopes them.

Not an original thought from me, but original from the only One capable of speaking originally without previous origins.

[Gerr]

IMO, at-one-ment is the ultimate purpose of judgment, the vindication of His good name, that the whole universe including Satan himself will agree that His handling of a blot in His creation was ultimately fair. Punishment is only an incidental in the whole process.

[teresaq]

this is really something to think about.

i think that we tend to focus on the "vengence" thing because that is what we are all about, not because that is what God is saying. in other words i think we magnify that to the neglect of what most of the bible is about: Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

i dont know how many readings of the ot id done before i realized most of the time God wasnt saying He was going to bring harm but merely stating a fact of what was to happen as a result of their own actions.

i think you are right, even when it comes to whatever we might consider the most vile crime or person. God is about redemption.

[teresaq]

[Refering to Kevin's post...] ill look for that as i reread the ot. :)

[hch]

It is an interesting thread.

Judgment and mercy go hand in hand

But lest we forget: God's patience is not everlasting

There is a time for everything under the sun. And time for Judgment to be considered and a time for it to be dispensed.

Hopefully, we won't run the clock down to the dispensing of the Judgment by spending too long considering some of the facets of the Judgment

[pnattmbtc]

Indeed, "judgment" or "justice" in Scripture is restorative and redemptive, rather than retributive. Zechariah speaks of justice as the administration of mercy and compassion upon one's brethren (7:9). Isaiah speaks of how God longs to be gracious and show compassion because He is a God of justice (30:18). The idea is one of restoring the covenant community to shalom.

This concept has profound implications as we consider the final judgment and the atonement.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator judgment time...

If some of you are coming back to continue the arguments and idea deconstruction and destruction you will notice many posts missing.

As Stan noted, this is a unique forum for original thoughts which makes quoting out of place since by definition a quote is not your own original thought but one borrowed from someone else. There is but one iron-clad rule here.

And if you read through the locked thread at the top you can see how this forum came to be, why and the general philosophy behind it.

I pondered doing my usual editing the quotes out, but soon discovered that the departure from the basic rule in this topic quickly devolved into a destructive argument. I say destructive, because the idea building process rapidly reversed course and veered off into an undesirable direction not contemplated by my original post or the latitudinarian outlook I prefer to foster here.

So I have deleted everything from the post that precipitated the detour. So if anyone wishes to start over by contributing positively and building upon the original thought with original thoughts of your own, go for it. If not, you are free to go elsewhere to argue your unoriginal thoughts to your hearts content.

[teresaq]

i learned a long time ago that i have no original thoughts. i heard or read it from someone else and am just regurgitating it.

so how on earth does one contribute?

or am i missing the whole point, which is possible since i can be quite dense, til i catch on....

i do like some of the thoughts expressed and pray that God gives each of us "original thoughts" to continue this God-glorifying topic. (and goal)

[teresaq]

im hesitant to admit this amongst a bunch of unknowns, , but i dimly comprehend that.

but the dim part that comprehends does agree. on the other hand quotes can be used beneficially.

i just noticed tho, that at least one copies(d?) from some book as if it were they saying it. (not on this thread)

[cardw]

Rather than being an original thought the idea of judgment being God's mercy is simply an outright redefinition.

Or a classic double think, "Judgment and mercy go hand in hand"

These ideas were outlined quite well in George Orwell's 1984. I would post the definitions of judgement and mercy, but I'm limited by your definition of "original" thoughts.

The other question that I have asked is exactly how is the final judgment restorative? If we are going to claim to have an original idea, then offering an example that is rational might be useful.

No one has ventured to explain exactly how this final judgment is either merciful or restorative other than to offer some form of double think.

I am being asked to simply accept the hypocritical god who asks us to forgive, but doesn't seem to have the intelligence to figure out any other solution than violence to demonstrate his "mercy" and "love."

Does anybody else find this absurd!!!?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pagans find it absurd that a loving God has a temper and doesn't tolerate sin forever.

[cardw]

I didn't say that it's wrong to have a temper or to set boundaries. I think the type of violence used by god (burning) is the contention.

The claim is that god's violence to the wicked is restorative. I am simply asking how is this form of punishment, at the end of these people's lives, restorative to anyone?

Or as stated in the opening post by Tom that god is somehow fixing and repairing the damage done to the victims.

I honestly don't know how to see this as anything other than absurd.

Think about it. If I claimed that Buddha was doing the burning I don't think you would ever say that he was restoring and healing people's lives through the suffering and torture of others.

Now if we are going to offer new ideas and develop them, they need to have some consistency. Actually this idea is not really new or original, but it's useful for exploring various ethical what-ifs. The problem is discussions like this often assume certain "truths" without really examining them, which results in building up whole lines of thought that become increasing absurd because some premise along the way is subconsciously held as infallible.

That's why it's so easy to point out the absurdities because the idea is deconstructing itself. It's called going down the rabbit hole.

[John317]

Rich,

You've said that if you claimed that Buddha was doing the burning you don't think I would ever say that he was restoring and healing people's lives through the suffering and torture of others.

But I would if Buddha had the same characteristics/character and nature as the God of the Bible. Consider what the Bible says about God:

1) He's the Creator of everything that exists in the entire universe.

2) Therefore He's the creator and sustainer of all life not only on earth but in all the universe. This includes you and me, and everyone else, with every breath we take.

3) The One who made the physical and moral laws of the universe.

4) The One who demonstrated His love for humanity by coming here and giving His life to save us, strictly out of mercy and pity for the human race, and not because He was obligated to or was compelled by any higher power or law. (He would have been right to leave all humanity to reap the natural consequences of our choices to disobey the life-giver, if this is what He had decided to do.)

5) The One who has a right to destroy that which He has made if He so chooses.

6) The One who is above all law since all law proceeds from, or has its origin in, Him.

7) The One who as Creator of all things has the right to decide how to restore the universe to peace and harmony.

8) The One who will ultimately prove that His way of agape/love results in life, peace, and harmony, whereas Satan's way of the rule of self-- and independence of, and rebellion against, God-- leads to suffering and death.

9) The One who out of respect for man's dignity and freedom of choice invites us to carefully weigh all the evidence and decide whom we want to serve, whether the living God or Satan. He's also shown that He wants humans to choose to accept His offer of eternal life with Him in a universe cleansed of all sin and death and restored to the way it was before the rebellion of Lucifer. I've found Him to be a God worth serving. His appeal to you and me-- and indeed, to all humanity-- is, "Choose life. Why will you die [eternally]?"

John3:17

[teresaq]

well so much for hoping that this would continue to glorify God....

john and rich do you think you could reread the op?

[John317]

Please show how what I've said does not glorify God. If you convince me by evidence and reasoning that I have not glorified God, I will be more than happy to delete my post.

rich does not believe in God so we can't expect him to glorify Him but rich still has a right to post his thoughts here.

[teresaq]

sorry you misunderstood, john. ill let you figure it out.

if there is a mod or admin who has an idea of the point im making they might be better able to explain it to you than i.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am temporarily locking this topic since I am tired of having to continually edit and correct those who seem unwilling to respect the one simple rule of this forum -

Every post must be the original thoughts of the poster, nothing more, nothing less. That means that no post should contain any quoted or paraphrased material from any source or other person, and one cannot even repeat even themselves.

It is also rather disappointing that there are those who have repeatedly attempted to hijack the topic to argue and complain about the basic premise of a forum for the development of fresh ideas and the expression of original thoughts. If you have no original contribution, just read and think about the topic and refrain from posting until you can think of a positive contribution that builds on the opening post.

But more disappointing are those who seem to have given little or no thought to the opening post in order to contribute to that topic. The argumentative tone serves to derail the topic and divert it into territory that I did not intend. If you wish to argue about traditional notions of the Judgment and the final destruction of the earth and life as we know it, go elsewhere, start your own topic or join on the multitude of threads on that topic still going full bore despite being well past their expiration date.

[Tom Wetmore]

With some fear and trepidation I reopen this topic with the following in the hopes it may get some fresh thoughts:

Many see the IJ as antithetical to a gospel of grace and hard to reconcile with Jesus' own words that he was not sent to condemn but to save. What I see lacking in so much of the discussion about an IJ is the real character of God's judgment, or the exercise of his justice which is about redemption and not condemnation. It is no accident that frequently the word justice, in reference to God's way, is paired with the word mercy. God's justice is toward setting to right wrongs that have been done - the ultimate victims' rights advocacy program. Those unjustly killed get restored to life. Those unjustly in poverty inherit the kingdom and become sons and daughters of the king. Those lied to, learn the truth. Those that are deprived of health and fitness, get to soar with the eagles and run without growing weary. The promise is that all things are made new again, a real thorough spring cleaning and rejuvenation. It is the complete reversal of the consequences of sin to this earth, a restoration to what it was like at the beginning. That is the exercise of God's judgment. It is cleaning the house. (That is a literal translation of a key phrase within the IJ ...)

Let's see how well we can reconcile the gospel of redemption from sin with this idea of God's sense of justice - judgment as a new creation...

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm? Tom, that's a good question. Why don't you ask the ones who touched the ark of the covenant and were killed by God and the ones who refused to eat the sacrifice who were killed and those in Sodom. While you're at it, ask God why He allowed Satan to go into the garden of Eden. Or better yet, ask why He put the tree of knowing good from evil in the Garden.

Then ask Him why the narrow gate and narrow road IF He is such a loving and foregiving God? Oh, and while your at it, ask Him not to throw those non-bearing branches into the fire so that they can be grafted BACK in like Paul said!

[phkrause]

As a matter of fact Dr Rich, we will be asking him those questions some day!

[teresaq]

As an aside, being one of those who see the IJ as God going through the records to see who of us had even a desire to know His true character, as well as a desire to live up to that character, as opposed to Satan's character which we are all born with, and far too often desire more than life itself,

I don't think we concentrate on, or even know, the many promises of God to do the work in us that we would be fit for heaven.

Not knowing those promises, not dwelling on those promises, tends to make us to self-centered, too scared, to be of any use to God or our fellowmen...

Php_1:6

2Th_2:17 ...

Heb_13:21

Hmmm, I ended up in a different direction than I started out at...