Faith... How does it work?

[Musicman1228]

I am a professional teacher and as such I rely on faith to begin the process of the education of my students. A student will come into my band room having never even held an instrument before in their life. They feel insecure and apprehensive about what is about to happen to them. They have all sorts of questions, such as, "Will I actually be able to play this thing?. Will I be able to understand what these dots and lines on this music means? Will I embarrass myself in front of my classmates?"

In reality no one knows whether they will be able to play an instrument or not. There are lots of mitigating circumstances that could prevent a new band student from being able to play an instrument. But my job as teacher and band director is to convince that student that they do have what it takes to become competent in their chosen instrument. My job is to give them hope and develop in them the faith that it takes so as to give them time to become competent rather than give up and go into choir.

But if this faith is not replaced with the knowledge and skills required to make the tone and play the notes that student will not become competent and will be left behind by the other band members in their ability to contribute to the band.

This is just like faith in spiritual things. The parallels are uncanny. We all begin our experience with Jesus Christ in faith because we don't know what we are doing, what to expect, or what is expected of us. We have our coaches or teachers that tell us that we can learn and grow in our spiritual identity in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit begins the process of guiding us into truth. But just as with my band students if these new believers decides to continue to have faith and not move toward competence in obedience to the truth then even if they believe with all their hearts that they love Jesus they will not become born again and will not become members of the Kingdom of Heaven, they will not see the earth made new.

Faith is where we all begin, but if that is where we stay then we will never become like Jesus-having complete trust in His Father and in His Spirit, and knowing the truth so that the truth can set us free.

[Guest]

Interesting Tom--Did you say "Faith is knowing.."? To my way of thinking--one either KNOWS or has faith in something. If you KNOW--then what is the value of faith? Much like Daniel KNOWING his God would tell him the dream and give him the interpretation rather than just believing by faith that this would happen.

I have no problem with faith as long as it is associated with an educated understanding (knowing). But Tom, I'm sure you would agree that you have run into people who call themselves a christian when their alleged knowledge is built only upon hearsay, opinions or beliefs of others. Such a person would be in the same position as the last person in a game of 'gossip'.

It is my belief that this type of person will be the ones that question Jesus by saying that they deserve to be saved because of all that they have believed and did--even cast out evil spirits--and Jesus will say to them--"Depart--for I don't even know you". (Perhaps meaning that these people really didn't KNOW Jesus--they only had FAITH?)

That would be wrong Rich. Those people never had real faith. Like Ted said:

living faith is not founded upon a lie, but on the truth and power upon the living Word of God, and it promotes the exploration of deeper truth.

[Tom Wetmore]

If faith is dependent on knowledge there are many just too dumb to save. There apparently would need to be a minimum IQ for admission to heaven.

That is why I believe a better way is to see it as trust, which is more than merely acquisition and processing of information. That is why I said trust comes out of a relationship. A child has very little knowledge but willingly trusts mommy enough to hold her hand when crossing the street. I think that was a big part of what Jesus was getting at when he said to be like a child.

But there is an element of intelligence that seems to be more in harmony with what I see as relational trust as a better way of understanding faith in God. That is emotional intelligence.

Tom

[Dr. Rich]

Those living in the last generation will be the ones that I am talking about that will have been given information from the 144k and the 5 wise virgins to move from faith to trust. Laodiceans (Rev. 3:14-and on) are the ones that appears will be in trouble for not moving from faith to knowing the truth and repenting for following lies.

When the time comes to chose what is being told by the 144k or keep believing in lies, then mere faith will probably not be enough. As Richard's new thread states--people MUST overcome from something!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Interesting Tom--Did you say "Faith is knowing.."? To my way of thinking--one either KNOWS or has faith in something. If you KNOW--then what is the value of faith? Much like Daniel KNOWING his God would tell him the dream and give him the interpretation rather than just believing by faith that this would happen.

I have no problem with faith as long as it is associated with an educated understanding (knowing). But Tom, I'm sure you would agree that you have run into people who call themselves a christian when their alleged knowledge is built only upon hearsay, opinions or beliefs of others. Such a person would be in the same position as the last person in a game of 'gossip'.

It is my belief that this type of person will be the ones that question Jesus by saying that they deserve to be saved because of all that they have believed and did--even cast out evil spirits--and Jesus will say to them--"Depart--for I don't even know you". (Perhaps meaning that these people really didn't KNOW Jesus--they only had FAITH?)

That would be wrong Rich. Those people never had real faith. Like Ted said:

living faith is not founded upon a lie, but on the truth and power upon the living Word of God, and it promotes the exploration of deeper truth.

A living faith is only possible through the process of the Christian Rebirth.

It is a gift of the Spirit. :-)

Many have an intellectual assent to truth.

This is not Faith.

It is a "belief".

True faith is "spiritual" not intellectual, (although the intellect is involved).

It is only as the Holy Spirit enables us to believe that it becomes "faith".

This is my current understanding.

Mark

[Guest]

A living faith is only possible through the process of the Christian Rebirth.

It is a gift of the Spirit. :-)

Many have an intellectual assent to truth.

This is not Faith.

It is a "belief".

Amen

[Dr. Rich]

Well now Twilight and RH, are you saying that no one has any 'living faith' today? If not, can someone please show me someone who has had a Christian Rebirth? (1Jn. 3:9)

[Guest]

Nobody said there is no faith. Rebirth? I'm not the same person I used to be.

[Dr. Rich]

Neither am I--I am older and wiser. Can you, or anyone for that matter, show me someone who has been truly born of the Holy Spirit?

What was written is that living faith requires being born again by the Holy Spirit--right? Well then, if this is so, and no one has truly been born again by the Holy Spirit, then by deduction, there would be no one with any living faith.

If that statement is true, then I would love for someone to show me someone who has really be born of the Holy Spirit and has NO lie in their mouth! I would then be willing to learn all this person could teach me.

[Guest]

I know plenty of them, but no one needs to prove they have the HS to you.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

[Dr. Rich]

WHAT? I will give you $10,000.00 per person you can show me who has truly been born of the Holy Spirit, So--Yes they do! We are told:

"..do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God..." 1st John 4:1

"We know that no one born of God (Holy Spirit) sins; but he who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him." 1st John 5:18.

"And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments." 1st. John 2:3

Who wrote Psalms 51:11? Was not David considered righteous?

[Guest]

Do you consider yourself to be part of the KOG? since you think it is here?

[Dr. Rich]

As said before, the KOH today is the SDA corporate church--and those who believe in the advent of Christ and keep all ten of the commandments. Some in it today will be sifted out during the great shaking. I am a SDA and have been all my life.

[Guest]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:5

By your own definition you can't be a part of the SDA church, or (KOG) without the spirit. According to Jesus' words.

[Guest]

So you're either wrong about what the KOG is, or you're wrong about who has the spirit. In this case, I'm afraid you're wrong on both counts.

[Dr. Rich]

I see your point.

[Twilight]

Well now Twilight and RH, are you saying that no one has any 'living faith' today? If not, can someone please show me someone who has had a Christian Rebirth? (1Jn. 3:9)

I do not think I asserted that, would you read my post again Dr Rich?

[Twilight]

Neither am I--I am older and wiser. Can you, or anyone for that matter, show me someone who has been truly born of the Holy Spirit?

What was written is that living faith requires being born again by the Holy Spirit--right? Well then, if this is so, and no one has truly been born again by the Holy Spirit, then by deduction, there would be no one with any living faith.

If that statement is true, then I would love for someone to show me someone who has really be born of the Holy Spirit and has NO lie in their mouth! I would then be willing to learn all this person could teach me.

Being born of the Spirit and growing into the stature of a spiritual man are not neccesarily the same thing... :-)