Who is in charge of the Lake of Fire??

[BobRyan]

In Matt 10:28 God says that man has only the ability to kill the body -- not the soul. God says only God can "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

In Rev 20 it is God the rains fire down from heaven -- not man.

At the flood God does not say "I will allow man to flood the planet soon - so build a boat". God sits as king at the flood as well.

While there are plenty of examples in the Bible where God uses "other tools in the toolbox" to discipline or even anihilate ... somethings are God's "alone".

Annias and Saphira did not just-so-happen to "commit suicide when they took a look at Peter".

Hopefully all agree on that point at least.

And so it is not too surprising that we find Ellen White in full agreement with these Bible teachings.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Question -- just how "Strongly does Ellen White agree" with the Bible examples given in the post above?

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Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

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EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

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I will summarize those points after a bit.

[BobRyan]

-- Details that come up here.

The Lake of fire event begins with all the wicked -- already dust -- already dead. (Except for the fallen angels). Thus from start to finish - the Lord has to take action in Rev 20.

This is the only way you could ever get the measuring out of torment such that in "fire and brimstone" that is reforming the earths crust "each one suffers according to their own deeds" with Satan suffering for "many days beyond" that of the last human.

1. "The indignation of the Lord" and "His fury" on all nations

2. "Weapons concealed in the DEPTHS of the earth" to be used in this event

3. "Burning and fuel of fire"

4. "He hath delivered them to the slaughter"

5. "Upon the wicked HE shall rain burning coals of fire and brimstone and horrible tempest"

6. "Devouring flames burst FROM every yawning chasm" - "the very ROCKS are on fire"

7. "Elements melt with fervent heat" - the Earth AND the WORKS there-in burned up

8. "Earth's SURFACE one MOLTEN mass - a vast seething Lake of FIRE"

9. "Some are destroyed in a moment" - "Others SUFFER for many days" for "ALL are PUNISHED according to their DEEDS"

10. And beyond all that Satan is to "LIVE and SUFFER ON"

Never is that language used for "Israel defeats the Philistines in Battle".

Never is that language used for someone eating themselves into an early grave through intemperance.

Never is that language used for someone suffering sickness or even death as a consequence of poor choices.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

All good points Bob.

[phkrause]

Good post Bob.

pk

[BobRyan]

God has many tools "in the tool box" and many levels of discipline vs punishment vs anihilation vs "paying the wages of sin" in the "second death".

In Ezek 18 God says that the sinner who turns to God - "does not die" but the one in rebellion does. This refers only to the 2nd death since we know that BOTH the righteous and the wicked, get sick, get a tummy ache if they eat the wrong thing, suffer from stupid decisions, die the "first death" etc etc. And in the case of Daniel - he was taken into captivity due to the sins of his nation - not his own sins.

But in regard to this unique second death event - none of the righteous partake and it has nothing at all to do with eating too much and getting a tummy ache.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Amen

[Twilight]

It does seem clear that God is in charge of the lake of fire...

[Kevin H]

BobRyan: You are pulling facts about the truth out of context and thus ending up with nonsence which is leading to confusion and that can eventually turn into a lie.

God IS the lake of fire. It is God's visible physical pressence. Don't forget Isaiah 33 asks who can live in the eternal fire, and the answer is the righteous.

When the prophets saw God they felt like they were being burned alive but came to thrive in this pressence. Moses needed to be hid in the cleft of the rock and only see the back of God and had to start wearing a vail because of the brighness of the lake of fire relectiong off of him. When Jesus was on earth the lake of fire was vailed by humanity, but Jesus allowed the lake of fire to flash through the money changers ran away from him and the poor and children ran to him. When Paul tells us that being kind to our enemies is heaping hot coals on their heads he was quite litterally talking about coals from the lake of fire.

God IS the lake of fire, it is the glory of him that is love that consumes the wicked. The lake of fire is God's glory, God's love, God with us visably and in person. Some live and thrive in the lake of fire and find it to be heaven. Others find seeing God in person, the love, the holyness, the kindness, the glory, the fellowship, the self sacrificing love to be horror and hell and death to them.

The center of the doctrine of hell is Jesus. It is the pressence of Jesus unvailed by humanity which is hell fire. Jesus is our deepest desire. The desire of all nations, the one beloved of women. The lost are stuck between their deepest desire, to want to be like and with Jesus, and their sinful nature and their habit of fighting against the Holy Spirit's draw on their hearts and fighting the drawing power of God's love. As Jesus told Nicodenous that the reason the lost are lost is because they are afraid to come to the light for fear of their deeds being exposed-- or they are afraid that God is going to get them for their sins. They want to come but refuse to come.

The reason why some sinners burn longer and Satan the longest is that they keep coming up with excuses and finally reach a point where they realize that God is right, kneel and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, the the law of self sacrificing love is holy and that God does indeed live by that law as it is a reflection of his character, but that they are so out of harmony with that law that they do not want to be with their deepest desire. All their questions are answered and God does not force them to live in the eternal fire and allows them to die. Just as the rightesous say to God "Thy will be done" God says to the lost "Thy will be done." and honors their choice and they die.

[Kevin H]

Bob, there is something that you are seeing, but it is only part of the truth and you need to be careful

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: You are pulling facts about the truth out of context and thus ending up with nonsence which is leading to confusion and that can eventually turn into a lie.

God IS the lake of fire.

[BobRyan]

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

=========================

You're explanation of the form "they burn long because they keep asking questions" is not found in the explanation above -- at all.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

BobRyan: You are pulling facts about the truth out of context and thus ending up with nonsence which is leading to confusion and that can eventually turn into a lie.

God IS the lake of fire.

An interesting concept. "The very rocks are on fire" in the statement quoted - would turn your view into pantheism. A detail that shows the problem with that -- is that both the Bible and Ellen White argee that the wicked are "doing just fine" in the presence of God - watching the events of their lives and the Great Controversy explained, summarized and viewed.

But once God pronounces judgment -- then suddenly -- at the moment "they are not so fine".

As we all know -- It is not "a different God" that shows up at that point.

If the only factor were "it is God's presence" or "God's visible presence" then there could be no great white throne judgment -- the one that is affirmed by both scripture and Ellen White's writings.. because the wicked would die the instant they surrounded the camp of the saints.

In fact there could be no Job 1 or Job 2 with Satan appearing before God along with the sons of God. Poof! no more Satan. At the burning bush in Exodus Poof! no more world, no more Moses. At Mount Sinai - Poof -- no more mountain.

Ellen White describes the throne of God high and lifted up -- and the wicked observing the final coronation of Christ,

Quote:

God IS the lake of fire, it is the glory of him that is love that consumes the wicked. The lake of fire is God's glory, God's love,

Wrong.

Neither the Bible nor Ellen White describes the "fire that burns the rocks" as Love.

In fact if the rock-burning fire were to continue -- there would never be a "New Earth" because God is going to be on earth as we see in Rev 21 and that Fire would just "keep burning rocks".

Furthermore -- Ellen White describes the New Jerusalem being lifted up and protected from that fire.

Hmmm - with "God on the inside" and "the fire on the outside" as it "burns the very rocks".

Quote:

Some live and thrive in the lake of fire and find it to be heaven.

You have just destroyed your own argument. You have indentified the logical and most obvious element of your position -- only to find it to be a hill of your own making for there is no such "thrive in the lake of fire" statement in all of scripture NOR in the writings of Ellen White.

Furthermore -- there is no "Heaven is the Lake of Fire" in either of those sources.

And neither is there any description at all of the "very rocks being on fire" in the new earth.

Quote:

The reason why some sinners burn longer and Satan the longest is that they keep coming up with excuses

Another good example of a key element in your solution -- that is not found either in the Bible or in messages given to Ellen White.

The most central testable positions in your view -- are seen to be totally "alone" without any support at all from the Bible or the inspired writings of Ellen White.

I find that instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

I will have to agree with you Bob.

[Guest]

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

=========================

You're explanation of the form "they burn long because they keep asking questions" is not found in the explanation above -- at all.

How the passivists get around this very vivid vision, and the plain straight forward testimony of the prophet is beyond me.

[Ted Oplinger]

It's one of those "Inconvenient Truths" that gets passed by and buried, Richard.

Between Revelation 20 and EGW's points on the subject, I find it hard to advance the premise as Kevin did that there are those who find the Lake of Fire an enjoyable experience...

My personal opinion here (for what it is worth!) - the fire comes down to destroy the wicked in love and mercy, not wrath and anger. No one - not even of the wicked angels - will suffer the same effects of sin's ability to separate from God the way Christ did at the Cross.

The sufferings of Christ on the Cross will remain the sole example of what sin does to separate one from God. In mercy, God won't allow anyone else to go through that agony. Even the agony of getting consumed by fire will be less painful.

[Guest]

That's a very good point. I may have to quote you on another thread. This debate has been going on for weeks, and the passivists just keep getting more passive as they go. Also they have stuffed God into a little box where he can't do anything. He can't even destroy sin. They say sin destroys itself.

[teresaq]

Quote:

Some live and thrive in the lake of fire and find it to be heaven.

You have just destroyed your own argument. You have indentified the logical and most obvious element of your position -- only to find it to be a hill of your own making for there is no such "thrive in the lake of fire" statement in all of scripture NOR in the writings of Ellen White.

Furthermore -- there is no "Heaven is the Lake of Fire" in either of those sources.

[John317]

isaiah 33:14.... Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

litv: Son 8:6 ... For love is strong as death; ... its flames are flames of fire, a flame of Jehovah.

Son 8:7 Many waters cannot quench love, nor will the rivers overflow it.

In my view, these verses show that God's glory destroys sin wherever it is found. I believe the evidence is that when people hold on to sin, it actually changes them so that in the glorious presence of God, people will be destroyed. According to many Bible texts and the Spirit of Prophecy, that destruction will take the form of fire. The fire will be real because it will be the same fire that will purify the earth. There's no reason to believe it will be less real than the fire on Sinai, the fire that destroyed Sodom, the fire that killed Nadab and Abihu, or the fire that consumed the alters Elijah built.

[John317]

The reason why some sinners burn longer and Satan the longest is that they keep coming up with excuses and finally reach a point where they realize that God is right, kneel and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, the the law of self sacrificing love is holy and that God does indeed live by that law as it is a reflection of his character, but that they are so out of harmony with that law that they do not want to be with their deepest desire. All their questions are answered and God does not force them to live in the eternal fire and allows them to die. Just as the rightesous say to God "Thy will be done" God says to the lost "Thy will be done." and honors their choice and they die.

Could you show how this harmonizes with what Ellen White wrote in EW 52-53, 290-291? She says there that the saints and Jesus study the deeds of the wicked and then "mete out to the wicked the portion they must suffer."

Can you give a clear quote from either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy to show your explanation to be true, particularly what you say about why Satan suffers longer than everyone else-- that it's because he keeps coming up with excuses?

Also, it seems to me that your explanation does not explain why it's necessary for the wicked to have all their questions answered before God "allows them to die." It would mean that God keeps them alive in the fire until they reach a point where He decides they should die because they cease to come up with excuses. That would be different from their suffering "according to their sins."

GC 673 says that Satan is "made to suffer" as he will because of all the sins he caused God's people to commit. That is because the sins of the righteous are transferred to Satan. She describes his suffering as "punishment" rather than as a result of his "coming up with excuses."

According to GC 673, then, it wouldn't change Satan's amount of suffering even if he stopped coming up with excuses right now. Ellen White speaks of the necessity of "the full penalty of the law being visited" and "the demands of justice being met." That appears to me to be quite different from the explanation you give.

What you say here reminds me of an editorial on the destruction of the wicked, which was published in the Advent Review about a year or so ago. I believe it was written by Roy Adams. I thought it was very well written and contained some interesting, worthwhile points.

[skyblue888]

Personally, I can't agree with certain interpretations that have been put foreward lately on this thread about the lake of fire as though there won't be one. The lake of fire will be real but that fire will not come directly out from the Lord. And the idea that some might enjoy the lake of fire is ludicrous or that God Himself is the lake of fire. That's even more ludicrous.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Kevin H., as I recall, you've studied into the history of this question within Adventism. If I'm remembering this correctly, would you write a few words about the development of this doctrine with Adventism? (i.e., the doctrine of the destruction of the wicked, especially in regards to the fire that destroys them)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

isaiah 33:14.... Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

litv: Son 8:6 ... For love is strong as death; ... its flames are flames of fire, a flame of Jehovah.

Son 8:7 Many waters cannot quench love, nor will the rivers overflow it.

In my view, these verses show that God's glory destroys sin wherever it is found. I believe the evidence is that when people hold on to sin, it actually changes them so that in the glorious presence of God, people will be destroyed. According to many Bible texts and the Spirit of Prophecy, that destruction will take the form of fire. The fire will be real because it will be the same fire that will purify the earth. There's no reason to believe it will be less real than the fire on Sinai, the fire that destroyed Sodom, the fire that killed Nadab and Abihu, or the fire that consumed the alters Elijah built.

[skyblue888]

I agree that the fire is real in every case but that fire does not come directly out from the Lord upon the sinner even if the language seems to indicate that it does. The only way it can be understood that the fire comes from God out of heaven is that the Lord does not prevent that fire from falling upon the wicked. He does not interpose. "I was shown that God's judgments would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." MR 14, 3.1.

The sinners place themselves beyond the circle of God's protection.

We need only believe the Holy Spirit implicitly when He has declared so solemnly that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression;" and this can only mean that at all times, whether before or after the 1000 years, His judgments, no matter what form they take, do not come directly out from Him upon the sinners and that for holy angels to destroy at God's command, as the pen of inspiration has already shown, is that they receive the command from God to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy sinners when their cup of iniquity is full; then it is that the Lord will no longer prevent the destroyer from doing his work.

Inspiration has explained the language of the Bible so clearly that we have no excuse. We are under obligation to beleive that neither God nor holy angels ever stand toward the sinner as executioners of the sentence against transgression

sky

[pnattmbtc]

In my view, these verses show that God's glory destroys sin wherever it is found. I believe the evidence is that when people hold on to sin, it actually changes them so that in the glorious presence of God, people will be destroyed. According to many Bible texts and the Spirit of Prophecy, that destruction will take the form of fire. The fire will be real because it will be the same fire that will purify the earth.

Your idea is that the glory of God will cause spontaneous combustion upon the wicked? I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. When the wicked come into the presence of God, they will erupt in flames. This is what you're saying?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

In my view, these verses show that God's glory destroys sin wherever it is found. I believe the evidence is that when people hold on to sin, it actually changes them so that in the glorious presence of God, people will be destroyed. According to many Bible texts and the Spirit of Prophecy, that destruction will take the form of fire. The fire will be real because it will be the same fire that will purify the earth.

Your idea is that the glory of God will cause spontaneous combustion upon the wicked? I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. When the wicked come into the presence of God, they will erupt in flames. This is what you're saying?

I believe such verses as Exodus 19: 18-22 and Lev. 10: 1,2 give us an indication of what will happen to the wicked in Rev. 20: 9. If the Lord hadn't protected the people at Sinai, the text says that many of them would have perished. There's no protection of the wicked at the end. They are exposed to the full glory of God. See PP 303, 304, 359-362.

"He who is to the transgressors of His law a devouring fire, is to His people a safe pavilion." GC 654. (This is in the context of the Second Coming.)

At the Second Coming, "the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth-- consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory." GC 657. (Notice it is not Satan who destroys the wicked.)

Before Christ returns and blots the wicked from the face of the whole earth, God has already blotted their names out of the Book of Life. The wicked are ultimately responsible for their destruction by their own choices throughout life. They have made themselves unfit to inhabit heaven and the new earth, where only righteousness will dwell. 2 Peter 3: 10-13.

Compare carefully GC 672-673. The wicked are burned up in fire that has its source from God. They become ashes under the feet of the righteous. See Mal. 4: 1,3; Is. 66: 24.