Freedom That's Not Freedom

[GreatLakesGramma]

I was going to use this for my signature, but it's too long, so I decided to just share it here.

Quote:

FREEDOM THAT'S NOT FREEDOM

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931 to 2005.

[Gerr]

I believe Rogers was correct. What a powerful statement!

[Neil D]

So let me get this straight......

When a CEO of a company makes 12 times the salary of it's janitor, that is ok with you?

You don't think that the janitor, whose contribution to the company was worth a bit more than one twelveth the amount of the CEO?

So, when your CEO makes 180,000, and your 2nd in command makes 120,000, and the other VPs make 100,000...and then there are perks to the upper management that the rest of the employees do not get [which in essence boost the amount of the salary's of upper management another 20-30%], who does the real work in making the company work? Is it the CEO? Or is it middle management? Or is it the employee whose contribution is central in making the widget/service and whose personality with the costumers keep them happy and keep them repeating coming back to the widget/service that is provided? Or is it the lowly janitor whose contribution to the company sets the stage for the costumer to continue to come back?

Employees....another word for "slave"........?

[LifeHiscost]

Employees....another word for "slave"........?

When seeing the world as your highest goal, in a word, yes!

When God's kingdom is your goal, it's a supernatural phenomena.

"And whoever wishes to be most important and first in rank among you must be slave of all."Mark 10:44 AMP

" Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content."Philippians 4:11 KJV

Blessings!

[Neil D]

Doug,

You're right...Our part in supporting the business that our employer started is to do the best we can in every aspect....but the employer/boss has a responsibility to his employees. They have given a part of thier lives to thier employer, and they are the reason for the sucess of the business....Not the boss....

Therefore, when the business suceeds, should not the employees also reap the rewards of the business? 'Cus if it wasn't for the employees, he'd have no business....

[bonnie]

Employer's owe a honest and just wage,safe working conditions. Employer's take the financial risk and are not in business to make employee's equal with employer. Employer's often put in far more hours than employee's.

Those that want more are able to start their own business. If they do not want the financial risk and responsibility they cannot be expected to share in profits over and above their agreed upon hour or weekly salary and safe working conditions

[GreatLakesGramma]

My mother runs a small bookkeeping business out of her home. She has had 2 clients who got fed up with 14 to 16 hour days, 7 days a week, constant travel, little time for family, and even less for personal pursuits, only to have the government confiscate most of their earnings in taxes. One gave up his business, the other her six-figure corporate job, to go to work at jobs that demanded only 40 hours per week, with responsibility only for their own work, and steady paychecks that didn't come at so high a personal cost.

These people aren't letting their work rule their entire lives out of a sense of benevolence toward the employees of their companies. They are doing it so their own families can have a better life. Take that away from them, and they have no reason to continue to give their lives to their jobs. And if enough business owners and corporate CEOs made this same choice, there would be no jobs for the janitors, secretaries, and others, who either don't have what it takes, or aren't willing to do what it takes, to succeed in running their own businesses.

Life on this earth is not fair, and it never will be. But nobody has the right to decide what is fair for someone else, without walking in their shoes and living their life long enough to know what their job really costs them.

[bonnie]

Employer's have far less freedom than their employee's.

Most haven't a clue what it takes to run a successful business.

Most can't do it. Not always for lack of skill or money,but lack of the drive to do so.

The taxes alone are enough to discourage many. Especially now.There are many simply closing their doors.

The employee as you say has nothing invested except 40 hours a week and then pick up their check.

I have never been able to figure out the mentality that thinks someone starts a business with the thought of how many people he can provide for.

My husband did so because he wanted to be his own boss,so did all my brothers. Not because they could provide for dozens of families. That is a result of sound management,risk taking,and the 24/7 responsibility

[there buster]

Quote:

They have given a part of thier lives to thier employer, and they are the reason for the sucess of the business....Not the boss....

I try to avoid comment, but those words are so remote from reality.

If an employee 'gives' a part of their life to the employer, they do so voluntarily, and have no complaint. What employees do is enter into a contract, where they exchange their services for money/and or other considerations.

The employee has very little at risk, and therefore receives less compensation.

Misusing words such as 'gift' and 'slavery' debases the language, the discourse, and the logic.

Does a prostitute 'give' her services to one who pays her for them? If so, this equates her with a loving wife, and so debases the idea of marriage, conjugal love, and some of the most sacred relationships in life.

This is the inevitable result of the distortion of language and concepts by today's compassion pharisees.

[bonnie]

Quote:

They have given a part of thier lives to thier employer, and they are the reason for the sucess of the business....Not the boss....

I try to avoid comment, but those words are so remote from reality.

If an employee 'gives' a part of their life to the employer, they do so voluntarily, and have no complaint. What employees do is enter into a contract, where they exchange their services for money/and or other considerations.

The employee has very little at risk, and therefore receives less compensation.

Misusing words such as 'gift' and 'slavery' debases the language, the discourse, and the logic.

Does a prostitute 'give' her services to one who pays her for them? If so, this equates her with a loving wife, and so debases the idea of marriage, conjugal love, and some of the most sacred relationships in life.

This is the inevitable result of the distortion of language and concepts by today's compassion pharisees.

It is truly amazing the people that think someone decides to go into a business simply to see how many people he can employ and families he can care for.

I have never heard any employee that goes to the employer offering to share in the down times. Many small business owners and their families are the last paid.That may not be for some weeks.

They don't say ,aw just wait for my check till you have it.

If you can't pay they quickly go somewhere else.

[Gerr]

Two years ago, I heard the doc I was working for say on two different occasions that he had not paid himself. Of course, all the employees were getting paid. And he had to take out a loan. I quit though after I heard him say it the second time.

[LifeHiscost]

Employer's have far less freedom than their employee's.

Most haven't a clue what it takes to run a successful business.

Most can't do it. Not always for lack of skill or money,but lack of the drive to do so.

The taxes alone are enough to discourage many. Especially now.There are many simply closing their doors.

The employee as you say has nothing invested except 40 hours a week and then pick up their check.

I have never been able to figure out the mentality that thinks someone starts a business with the thought of how many people he can provide for.

My husband did so because he wanted to be his own boss,so did all my brothers. Not because they could provide for dozens of families. That is a result of sound management,risk taking,and the 24/7 responsibility

Excellent posts, Bonnie and GreatLakesGramma.

Many years ago I gave up a marriage as a result of chasing a job across state lines in order to make a living so the family I was responsible for would have a better chance to enjoy their lifestyle. When it became apparent the better half of the union did not think the necessary sacrifice to pay our own way was that important, the marriage broke down.

It was considered better to go on welfare than strive to follow pursuits less than convenient or desirable.

The pursuit of income doesn't always come with answers so easily accepted nor always so easily understood. Just at the time we might think we have all the answers we find we're only human, involved with other humans who have an entirely different picture of how to acquire the ideal lifestyle. Only submission to God's ideas, promise success and then often only after many trials hard to bear.

One thing I came out of the experience with was the sense of the reality that high position can often be highly overblown.

"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."2 Timothy 3:12 NKJV

"Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!”"Mark 10:23 NKJV

Blessings!

[Neil D]

I've listen to the comments here...and I feel that most are trying to compare apples to oranges...

First off, a CEO taking home 180K+ is not a "mom and pop" business. I am refering to a successful and well established business. Many of your hospitals are that way. Wall Street is definately that way...

2nd, most "mom and pop" businesses actually CARE about thier employees because they have a personal and intimate relationship with thier employees.

3rd, I am not saying that the business owner should not make more than the empolyees. In fact, I believe that he should make more than the employees. After all, he risked his financial future to make a go of the business. He needs to make the necessary business contacts to keep appearances up to be sucessfull. He should be rewarded for the risk that he took and for helping to grow the business.

4th, What I am talking about here is greed, an overwhelming yearning for more. More than what a person needs. More that what your employees think as excessive....

5th, Last, why are you guys so stingy regarding the employee? Don't you realize that your employee is really your customer? If ever your product goes under the spotlight for any reason, it's the employee who sinks or causes your business to stay afloat. Isn't it time to reward employee loyality with something more than just a job?

Consider this guy, who got STUPIDin his relationship with his employees

[bonnie]

I've listen to the comments here...and I feel that most are trying to compare apples to oranges...

First off, a CEO taking home 180K+ is not a "mom and pop" business. I am refering to a successful and well established business. Many of your hospitals are that way. Wall Street is definately that way...[

[bonnie]

The link you gave doesn't even apply

[Neil D]

The link you gave doesn't even apply

Either it does or you ain't getting it....

And didn't you say that you didn't want to converse with me????

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

The link you gave doesn't even apply

Either it does or you ain't getting it....

And didn't you say that you didn't want to converse with me????

I actually thought that this discussion being in the open you might have a tendency to be more civil.

As to what I said,I think it was "I rarely approach you if ever".

But when I do I don't attempt to be as rude as possible

The link has no application here,unless a CEO is acting in a way that is illegal which I am sure this is. You were talking of giving more to a loyal employee.

How many make the demands of the example you gave?

Hotel owner tells Hispanic workers to change names

This is not something that is typically asked or demanded.

[LifeHiscost]

Nor is it up to anyone to determine "greed".

"And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’ But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

“So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”"Luke 12:17-22 NKJV

Blessings!

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Nor is it up to anyone to determine "greed".

"And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’ But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

“So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”"Luke 12:17-22 NKJV

Blessings!

We do not live in a biblical society where businesses are run according to scripture. Businesses are accountable to civil law that governs their business.

Christian employee's should give their best for a days pay as should atheist employee's.

Christian employer's should without question give an honest wage.

Employee's that give themselves over to envy and lusting after what the employer has or receives needs to look for another employer.One that their pay will be on par with that of the employer.

If a employer is honest and pays a fair wage and working conditions he has fulfilled his obligation.

When an employee steps up to the plate and offers to share the risk,the stress,and the down times,perhaps he would be paid accordingly. Or he may take the steps to become an employer himself.

In a secular society it is no one's business or place to determine what is enough for someone else.

Your workplace is generally a secular workplace that is under civil not biblical law.

It is between the employer and God as long as he is a honest business man

[LifeHiscost]

We do not live in a biblical society where businesses are run according to scripture. Businesses are accountable to civil law that governs their business.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Agreed. Which is the major reason why the global economy is on the verge of collapse. God's underpinnings of our financial condition, despite our shortcomings, will shortly be withdrawn allowing full reception of the obvious result. Of course obvious only to those who still see the wisdom of applying His principles.

Speaking strictly in a secular sense many times people make a great deal of money dishonestly. I was under the impression this was not a topic to pursue end time events.

Many very good christian people have failed miserably at a business endeavor.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I have not limited my comments to the mom and pop business owners. The woman I mention, my mother's client, was not a business owner. She was a high-level corporate employee making a 6 figure income, and losing most of it to taxes.

Employees of any business, including the CEO, are paid according to their value to the company. A janitor's work is important, but if he is incompetent, the company won't go bankrupt, and it is an easy matter to find someone to replace him who will do the job right. But if the CEO is incompetent, he can destroy the company in short order. And along with the company will go the jobs of all the other employees. A competent CEO, by making good business decisions, can bring growth to the company that will lead to more jobs and better employee benefits. His value isn't only to the company. That is why he is paid so well.

People who want to tax rich people so severely don't seem to realize that it's rich people who make jobs for the rest of us. Rich people don't bury their money or hide it under a mattress. They invest it. And those investments create work for US. Even the money they spend on themselves and their families creates employment for us. When the US government slapped a luxury tax on yachts, it didn't hurt rich people at all. They just bought they yachts overseas. Which put the American luxury yacht building industry out of business, doing away with JOBS - jobs for people like US, who made pretty good pay. But not any more.

Sure, there are greedy CEOs who don't deserve the money they get, who collect huge salaries even while the company is going under. But when the government raises taxes on rich people, it isn't only the greedy ones who don't deserve their high salaries that lose most of it to Uncle Sam.

[Guest]

I have seen those who envy their employer's wage, and act like it is a sin for the employer to make a profit. When he is the one who put his neck on the line, and did what it took to start the business and make it work.

[bonnie]

I have seen those who envy their employer's wage, and act like it is a sin for the employer to make a profit. When he is the one who put his neck on the line, and did what it took to start the business and make it work.

I guess if we are going to act like something is a sin,we should start with the sin of envy.

Anytime a employee wants more than what is a fair wage,let him put his own neck on the line. Mortgage everything to the hilt for the opportunity to see how many you can employ.

If you need a degree to be higher on the employment chain,get it.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Sure, there are greedy CEOs who don't deserve the money they get, who collect huge salaries even while the company is going under. But when the government raises taxes on rich people, it isn't only the greedy ones who don't deserve their high salaries that lose most of it to Uncle Sam.

At the same time there are employee's that want a paycheck with limited effort.If they happen to be union employee's it is not as easy to fire them as it sounds

Prior to my husband going into business for himself he worked road construction.

Some,including himself were not happy to see other employee's,minorities spending most of the work day in their car.

The sup told them to ignore,they were built into the bid and any government job they were their token minority hire.

If they attempted to fire they found out quick enough it wasn't worth the headache to wade thru regulations