Rev 17

[Gerr]

Who is the woman and who is the beast in Rev 17?

[SivartM]

"MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH"

[wayfinder]

The woman is the great city Babylon who rules over the kingdoms of the earth. and the beast is the kingdoms of the the world/earth.

Revelation 17:18 "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Revelation 11:7,8 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

The great city (Babylon) is Jerusalem (where also their Lord was crucified).

Revelation 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.

(This is the beast that comes out of the abyss/earth)

Revelation 9:1,2 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 9:11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

Isaiah 14:12-14 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.

(Star/angel and pit/abyss)

[John317]

The woman is the corrupt church, Babylon, which rides on civil power, the political powers of the world. Babylon consists of all the false churches. These are the Roman Catholic Church as well as the protestant churches which follow her false teachings, and ultimately includes all apostate religious organizations.

[wayfinder]

John317, I know you would never add words to the Revelation, so could you show me in Revelation where it says the woman is the Catholic and Protestant churches as well as apostate religious organizations?

[John317]

Surely you are not looking for the Bible to use the words, "Catholic" or "protestant," are you?

[Guest]

Surely you are not looking for the Bible to use the words, "Catholic" or "protestant," are you?

I think "Higher Criticism" calls for that John. You have to doubt everything until proven otherwise.

That's where prayer, the Holy Spirit, and faith come in handy.

[wayfinder]

No, I am not looking for that, what I am saying is that the Revelation says that the great city rules over the kings/kingdoms of the earth. The great city is where the two witness are killed by the beast that comes up out of the abyss. The great city is also where their Lord was crucified. Their Lord is Jesus Christ and He was crucified in Jerusalem.

[John317]

Revelation says that the great city rules over the kings/kingdoms of the earth.

The great city that rules is Babylon. See Rev. 18. (Of course it is not literal Babylon.)

Quote:

The great city is where the two witness are killed by the beast that comes up out of the abyss.

Rev. 11: 3. The two witnesses, on one level, are the Old and New Testaments, and on another, the people of God as they preach the word of God.

"The great city" in Revelation refers consistently to the evil power that stands in opposition to God (cf. 14: 8; 16: 19; 17: 18; 18: 10, 16, 19, 21).

Since beasts represent political powers in the book of Daniel, the beast from the abyss must be understood as a kind of political power or religious power that dominates the world or part of it.

Quote:

The great city is also where their Lord was crucified. Their Lord is Jesus Christ and He was crucified in Jerusalem.

This great city is is in contrast to the "the holy city" of Rev. 11: 2 (cf. Daniel 9: 24; Rev. 21: 2, 10; 22: 19). The fact that it refers to Sodom and Egypt as the place where Jesus was crucified shows that it's not referring to a literal city.

Compare Is. 1: 9-10; 3: 9; Jer. 23: 14; Ezekiel 16: 48-58. Jerusalem was frequently equated with Sodom by the prophets during the days when she was in apostasy. Sodom stands for all-inclusive sin and total moral degradation (Ge. 18: 20-21; 19: 4-11). On the other hand, Egypt is known for its arrogance and atheistic self-sufficiency as the oppressor of God's people. (See Ex. 5: 2; Ezekiel 32: 12; Amos 4: 10: 11.)

[Guest]

Amen John

[Gerr]

"MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH"

As I look at the world today, just who is this mystical Babylon, the great mother of harlots & abominations?

[Gerr]

The woman is the great city Babylon who rules over the kingdoms of the earth. and the beast is the kingdoms of the the world/earth

Revelation 17:18 "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

And just who is this? Can we see them today?

[Musicman1228]

The Great City is Jerusalem. It is where Christ was crucified. It is where the two witnesses will be killed. It is where the three great religions of the world make their homes (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam).

This city IS NOT Rome. So while the Catholic church (and the Pope) will have influence, it will have no more or less influence than the other 6 (of 7) blasphemous heads (religions, or religious practices) that are on the 1st Beast of Rev.13.

During the Great Tribulation the Great City, Jerusalem, will become the central focus of the entire world. The 'wounded head' that identifies this Beast will arise from the Great City as a religion the major and identifying practice of which was taken away by war, but was returned. This will happen when the Temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt, during or just prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation. This cause the world to 'wonder' after the Beast. This is not the religion of Rome, it is the primary religion of Jerusalem, Judaism.

The major practice of the religion of Judaism was the animal sacrificial system. This is the ONLY element of Judaism that was rendered impossible to continue after Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE. Sabbath services and the reading of the Torah in the Synagogue was/and is still practiced. The Eucharist of the Catholic church was never laid aside because of war. Neither was the communion service of Christianity, or the Hadge of Islam. The only religious practice that has ever been suspended by an act of war in history has been the sacrificial service of Judaism. When the Temple in Jerusalem and the sacrificial service is restored we will know that we are either in, or about to begin the Great Tribulation.

[phkrause]

I think if you ask any Jewish/SDA Pastor they will tell you this will never happen. Christ haas already died this death why would he want the Sacrificial system to start up again?

pk

[John317]

The Great City is Jerusalem. It is where Christ was crucified. It is where the two witnesses will be killed. It is where the three great religions of the world make their homes (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam).

This city IS NOT Rome. So while the Catholic church (and the Pope) will have influence, it will have no more or less influence than the other 6 (of 7) blasphemous heads (religions, or religious practices) that are on the 1st Beast of Rev.13.

But Rev. 11: 8 is not talking about the city where Christ was literally crucified. It's speaking symbolically or spiritually. The entire chapter is referring to symbolic things, such as "two olive trees," "two lampstands," "fire proceeding from their mouths," a "beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit," etc.

The "great city" is Babylon, not Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be a part of Babylon the Great. The Great City reigns over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17: 18), and so far as I know Jerusalem never has ruled over the kings of the earth. However, Rome certainly has so ruled.

[Musicman1228]

We know that the sacrificial system has no more meaning, that is not the point. To gain control of the world Satan will have to show himself to be God by standing in the Temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself to be the God of all of the religions of the world. This he will do. In order to do that there must be a Temple in which he can stand. That Temple no longer exists, but it will because it must if prophecy is to be fulfilled.

As to symbols; all symbols refer to literal things, that is what symbols do. Prophecy is literal, with literal events at literal locations involving literal people and literal outcomes. These literal events, locations, people and outcomes are often spoken of in symbolic language but they still represent something real. Is not the New Jerusalem real? It is symbolically called 'the Bride', is it not? At beast in prophecy is a symbol but does it not represent a literal power or authority or rule? Just because something is couched in symbolic language does not mean that it's literal meaning is symbolic. A symbol NEVER represents another symbol, it always represents something literal. And who chooses what symbol is literal and which is not? If symbols are not literal then anyone can choose any symbol to mean anything that they want it to. This can prove to be problematic. If this is not the case then how do you know that the coming of Christ in the clouds of glory is not just a symbol, and will not happen in reality? Is the resurrection from the dead symbolic. I hope not. There is one thing that I don't want to be a symbol and that is the Coming of Christ in the clouds, I want it to be literal and I want it to be soon. Don't you?