The 24 Elders (who are they?)

[Guest]

These are some notes of Stephen Bohr on this topic. I find them quite interesting.

The Twenty Four Elders

The Morning Stars and the Sons of God

Job 38:1-7

“Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will

demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou

knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and

all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

Two groups: The morning stars and the sons of God already existed at creation.

The Morning Stars

Revelation 12:3, 9 identify the stars as angels but who are the sons of God?

Job 1 and 2: Job lost everything in a matter of a few hours-children, houses, lands, beasts, wife, health, friends and even God appears to have forsaken him.

From chapter 3 through chapter 37 Job asks God to explain why these things are happening to him.

Job is the best person to explain who the sons of God are:

The Sons of God

Job 1:6, 7:

“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: From going to and fro in the

earth, and from walking up and down in it.” Some very interesting details emerge from these verses:

1. The sons of God do not always dwell in the presence of God. They came to present themselves on a certain day. This contrasts with the previous verse where we are told that Job offered sacrifices always.

2. Satan came among the sons of God. What made him feel like he had a right to appear with this select group?

3. Satan came representing a planet, the earth. Where, then, must the other sons of God have come from?

Job 2:1, 2: “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the

LORD said unto Satan: From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said: From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”

The word “again” is vital. If they came again, they left the presence of God after the first meeting and then returned for the second meeting.

Why Was Satan Among the Sons of God?

[Guest]

Why Was Satan Among the Sons of God?

What made Satan feel like he had a right to appear among this select group? The answer is in Luke 4:5, 6:

“And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him: All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.”

Satan stole the position which rightfully belonged to Adam. He usurped Adam’s throne. When Adam chose to obey Satan, he became Satan’s subject for we are subjects of the master whom we choose to obey (Romans 6:16)

Look up the following references for the idea that the universe is governed by a heavenly council: 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 has another scene similar to the one in Job.

Adam: The Original Son of God

Luke 3:38: The Son of God

“. .. which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”

Regarding Adam’s status as the son of God we have this from Ellen White:

“The genealogy of our race, as given by inspiration, traces back its origin, not to a line of developing germs, mollusks, and quadrupeds, but to the great Creator. Though formed from the dust, Adam was "the son of God." He was placed, as God's representative, over the lower orders of being.” Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 45.

[Guest]

The original “son of God” was Adam. He was the son of God in a special sense—he was the son of God by creation, not procreation.

Psalm 8:3-5: The king is crowned and given his territory

“For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; the fowl

of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.”

Ellen White amplifies this thought:

“Adam was crowned as king in Eden. To him was given dominion over every living thing that God had created. The Lord blessed Adam and Eve with intelligence such as he had not given to the animal creation. He made Adam the rightful sovereign over all the works of his hands.” Ellen G. White, Review and Herald, February 24, 1874.

Adam was crowned as king and the realm of his kingdom was planet earth. Adam and Eve’s Garments

Genesis 2:25 explains that Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed. A closer look reveals that they were covered with glorious garments of light.

Psalms 104:1-2: “Bless the LORD, O my soul! O LORD my God, You are very great: You are clothed with honor and majesty, 2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment, Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.” God’s garments are garments of light.

In Revelation 12: 1 the true church is garbed with the glorious light of the sun. In Matthew 17 the raiment of Jesus is spoken of as being white as the light.

Notice the following incisive comment by Ellen G. White:

“The sinless pair wore no artificial garments; they were clothed with a covering of light and glory, such as the angels wear. So long as they lived in obedience to God, this robe of light continued to enshroud them.” Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 45.

Adam was the father and representative

“In Eden, God set up the memorial of His work of creation, in placing His blessing upon the seventh day. The Sabbath was committed to Adam, the father and representative of the whole human family.” Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 48.

The Context of Revelation Four and Five

Revelation 4 has three orders of beings: One who is seated on the throne (4:2), the four living creatures (4:6-8; Isaiah 6:1-3: Seraphim) and the 24 elders (4:4). Missing are the angelic hosts and Christ. The twenty-four elders are there before Jesus arrives.

Revelation 5 adds two orders of being: The angels arrive with the Lamb who has just been slain and has resurrected.

Who are the Twenty-four Elders?

[Guest]

Who are the Twenty-four Elders?

Revelation 4:4

“And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.”

They are seated on thrones, therefore they are rulers. But where?

They have crowns on their heads, they are kings (Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:17; John 19:2; Revelation 14:14 The stefanos is sometimes used for a king and not only for a victor)

They are robed in white garments of light

They are creatures (Revelation 4:10, 11)

Ellen White Identifies the 24 Elders

“All heaven was waiting to welcome the Saviour to the celestial courts. As He ascended, He led the way, and the multitude of captives set free at His resurrection followed. The heavenly host, with shouts and acclamations of praise and celestial song, attended the joyous train.

As they drew near to the city of God, the challenge is given by the escorting angels,--

"Lift up your heads, O ye gates;

And be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors;

And the King of glory shall come in."

Joyfully the waiting sentinels respond,--

"Who is this King of glory?"

This they say, not because they know not who He is, but because they would hear the answer of exalted praise,--

"The Lord strong and mighty,

The Lord mighty in battle!

Lift up your heads, O ye gates;

Even lift them up, ye everlasting doors;

And the King of glory shall come in."

Again is heard the challenge, "Who is this King of glory?" for the angels never weary of hearing His name exalted. The escorting angels make reply,--

"The Lord of hosts;

He is the King of glory." Ps. 24:7-10.

Then the portals of the city of God are opened wide, and the angelic throng sweep through the gates amid a burst of rapturous music.

There is the throne [4:2], and around it the rainbow of promise [4:3]. There are cherubim and seraphim [4:6-8]. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds [4:4], are assembled. The heavenly council before

which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King.

But He waves them back. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to

the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents;

who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24.

[Guest]

The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied. Satan is vanquished. Christ's toiling, struggling ones on earth are "accepted in the Beloved." Eph. 1:6. Before the heavenly angels and the representatives of unfallen worlds, they are declared justified. Where He is, there His church shall be. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Ps. 85:10. The Father's arms encircle His Son, and the word is given, "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6.

With joy unutterable, rulers and principalities and powers acknowledge the supremacy of the Prince of life. The angel host prostrate themselves before Him, while the glad shout fills all the courts of heaven, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12.

Songs of triumph mingle with the music from angel harps, till heaven seems to overflow with joy and praise. Love has conquered. The lost is found. Heaven rings with voices in lofty strains proclaiming, "Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever." Rev. 5:13. The Desire of Ages, pp. 833-835.

[Guest]

Satan Missing in Heaven

There is one who is missing: Satan. Normally Satan would be there representing planet earth. Why wasn’t Satan present there? John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:10-12 have the answer: Satan was cast out of heaven at the cross as the representative of this world. His place was taken by the second Adam who defeated him on the battlefield where Adam lost. Jesus recovered what the first Adam lost.

Jesus is the Second Adam

Luke 1:35: Jesus is the Son of God

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

1 Corinthians 15:22: Jesus takes the place of the first Adam

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

1 Corinthians 15:45

“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”

Romans 5:18

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Hebrews 2:5-9 applies Psalm 8:3-5 to Jesus because Jesus takes the place of Adam.

“The human race does not stand in the righteousness of character which Adam possessed at his creation. Although neglect to keep the requirements of God is sin, and the wages of sin is death, yet there is no claim made that man may have eternal life except through the

obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ, who is the representative and head of all humanity.” Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, June 11, 1894.

“Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges.” Ellen G. White, Signs of

the Times, January 16, 1896.

“As representative of the fallen race, Christ passed over the same ground on which Adam stumbled and fell. By a life of perfect obedience to God's law, Christ redeemed man from the penalty of Adam's disgraceful fall.” Ellen G. White, Manuscript 126, 1901.

“Christ was to suffer in our behalf, standing at the head of humanity as representative of the race. He was to work out the character which every follower of His is to work out, through the provision He has made,--His infinite sacrifice, His life and death on earth.” Ellen G. White, The Gospel Herald, March 1, 1901.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 5:8,9

When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

The Son of God purchased a kingdom with His blood. This kingdom is filled with mankind from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. It is the four living creatures and the 24 elders that make this proclaimation. This occurs before the "great tribulation".

[Guest]

Will Adam Ever be placed on the Throne Again?

“As the ransomed ones are welcomed to the City of God, there rings out upon the air an exultant cry of adoration. The two Adams are about to meet. The Son of God is standing with outstretched arms to receive the father of our race--the being whom He created, who

sinned against his Maker, and for whose sin the marks of the crucifixion are borne upon the Saviour's form. As Adam discerns the prints of the cruel nails, he does not fall upon the bosom of his Lord, but in humiliation casts himself at His feet, crying: "Worthy,

worthy is the Lamb that was slain!" Tenderly the Saviour lifts him up and bids him look once more upon the Eden home from which he has so long been exiled

After his expulsion from Eden, Adam's life on earth was filled with sorrow. Every dying leaf, every victim of sacrifice, every blight upon the fair face of nature, every stain upon man's purity, was a fresh reminder of his sin. Terrible was the agony of remorse as he

beheld iniquity abounding, and, in answer to his warnings, met the reproaches cast upon himself as the cause of sin. With patient humility he bore, for nearly a thousand years, the penalty of transgression. Faithfully did he repent of his sin and trust in the merits of the promised Saviour, and he died in the hope of a resurrection. The Son of God redeemed man's failure and fall; and now, through the work of the atonement, Adam is reinstated in

his first dominion.” The Great Controversy, p. 647.

A Process of Elimination (who they are not)

• They are not cherubim and seraphim because they are distinguished from the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4, 10)

• They are not part of the angelic hosts because they are distinguished from them (5:12) and they are in heaven before the angelic hosts arrive (Revelation 4)

• They are not members of the unnumbered host of the redeemed because one of the elders asks John who the great multitude from every nation, kindred, people and tongue is (Revelation 7:13) Significantly the elders sing about the redeemed “from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9) and in

Revelation 7 one of the elders is asked about the identity of those who belong to all nations, and kindreds, and people and tongues.” (Revelation 7:9)

• They are not part of the 144,000 because they 144,000 are distinguished from them (Revelation 14:3)

• They are not those who resurrect in the special resurrection (Daniel 12:2) because they were in heaven when Jesus ascended (Revelation 4)

• They are not those who will resurrect in the general resurrection because they were in heaven when Jesus ascended (I Thessalonians 4:15-17)

• They are not those who resurrected with Jesus because the twenty-four elders were already there before Jesus arrived (Revelation 4)

• So they are not angelic and they are not human. They must be some other order of being.

[Kevin H]

A lot of pretty good study, but for the identity of the 24 elders you are doing more deduction instead of induction. Induction has priority over deduction.

Revelation 4 and 5 is not all that complicated. You have the throne with the rainbow, you have the 4 living beasts and the 24 elders are between the throne and the 4 living creatures.

1. On the throne you have God as Power and the 7 fold Spirit of God, or the perfect Spirit, the Holy Spirit an later the Lamb. You have the rainbow of promise, the 24 elders and the four beasts.

2. Let's jump to the 4 beasts: These are familiar Old Testament immages. As the Hebrews marched through the Sinai going to the promised land they traveled in the ancient style of a typical warcamp: a square of 3 tribes on each side with the tabernacle in the middle. Despite our artist's depections of the high priests garment (and the sourse Mrs. White's staff copied) the actual brestplate of the high priest had 3 stones acrossed the top, 3 stones acrossed the bottom, 3 stones acrossed the right side and three along the left side, with an empty area in the middle, it was a reflection of the high priest carying God's people on his heart. Now one of the tribes on each of these four sides would have a beast assigned to them, who while directly applied to one tribe was also the beast for that side. The Hebrews marching on the promised land were known by the 4 beasts for their 4 sides of the war camp. When the Hebrews would go to war or travel they would travel in these war camps with the 4 beasts for the sides. The 4 beasts represent God's people, the church, not in the state of peace but in the state of war and exodus traveling to the promised land.

So the early readers of Revelation recognized the trinity (and there is evidence that the doctrine of the trinity was actually formed by second temple Judaism shortly before the birth of Jesus)and God's church here on earth in a state of spiritual warfare and traveling towards the promised land, with the 24 elders being between the throne and the church.

So we recognize that the 24 elders have something to do between God in heaven and God's people on earth.

[Kevin H]

3. Elders were the leaders among the people, kings tended to have different groups of 12 elders. Rabbies tended to have 12 full time disciples then smaller groups of part time disciples. Elders would sometimes represent their people in attending the feasts in Jerusalem. The Sanhadren is the Greek word that in Hebrew was simply elders. They were a group of 3 groups of 23 who with the high priest would equal 70. Sometimes the entire Sanhedren would meet, but often times they would only need sections of 23 plus the high priest for 24 elders which made up a quarum.

The Sanhedren was made up of mostly different groups of Pharicies and Saducees and maybe some smaller groups. In the days of Jesus, due to the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel, many claimed to the the messiah. When they were pulled for trial before the Sanhedren, several of the Pharicees would try to give the person more or less the benifit of the doubt, but what would be seen as wrong by some pharicess could be seen as acceptable by another group of pharicees so they would get off on all their sub arguments and the trials went no place.

On the other hand the Saducees were corupt puppets of Rome, who wanted to enjoy their riches and power and keep the peace. They were not looking for the messiah and they wanted to kill any one who was becoming a popular leader among the people. So they would meet as a group of 23 Saducees, with the high priest to make 24 elders who were to examin evidence as to whether or not this person was the messiah or not. The Jewish term for a kangaroo court is "Saduceen court" They would make a mockery of the trial. They would purposely have witnesses who would controdict each other.

Now Rome was allowed to crucify people for political crimes, and the Sanhedren was allowed to stone people to death for religious crimes. Pilate and Caiphias were friends. If someleader had a stronger case for political crimes Ciaphias would sent them to Pilate, where Pilate enjoyed toying with them by acting wishy washy giving them hope to be released, but then crucified. If there was a stronger religious case, the Sanhedren would take them out and stone them to death. Sometimes Rome caught someone who was first tried before Pilate, but where there would be stronger religious evidence so he would send them to Caiphias and the 24 saduceen elders who would take them out and stone them to death.

However, there was an understanding of the text in Deuteronomy of cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. In Jesus day this was understood as that if God was with anyone they would not be hung on a tree. Pilate and Caiphias took advantage of this. If there was a beloved religious leader (who did not even need to claim to be the messiah but just a popular with the people spiritual leader) where normally the sanhedren would stone them to death, they would work out political charges so that Pilate would crucify them. As this religious leader was found to be under the curse of hanging on a tree, it would ruin his reputaton as much as if he was caught in a sexual affair.

We find all these elements in the trial and crucifixtion of Jesus. If it is the same John in Revelation as it was for the book of John (and it was certanly the same school of thought) John had seen Jesus tried by 24 elders who lied about Jesus. Now John is finding their heavenly counterpart, 24 elders who are telling the truth about Jesus, who are someplace in the chain between God and his church.

[Kevin H]

So now we put these parts of Revelation 4 and 5 together: God in heaven, God's church on earth and two groups of 12 making up 24 elders who unlike the 24 Saduceen elders who told lies about Jesus, give evidence to God's people that Jesus is indeed the messiah.

So do we have 2 groups of 12 well known to the readers of Revelation? Yes we do: the 12 tribes and the 12 disciples. How do they testify? Through their ministry especially their writings. Where do we find the writings of the 24 elders? In the scriputres. So the 24 elders are symbolic of the scriptures and fits into the scheam of God communicating to his people on earth through the scriptures.