Needing Gods help - the error often hidden...

[Twilight]

Many have fallen into the most subtle of errors.

They believe that God has Justified them by faith.

But they are sanctified by their own effort with God "helping out".

Many believe that sanctification is God giving us power for us to wield.

This is error.

The truth is simple.

God does the work in us.

Our part is to:

1. Give up on self.

2. Appropriate the merits of Christ.

3. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

4. Walk in the Spirit.

Walking in the Spirit is the part we are discussing here.

As the Spirit calls to us, we respond and choose to put our will on the side of the Lord.

Then the Lord carries out within us His promises.

The Lord by a miracle works a promise within us.

-------------------------

Example:

I am tempted to be angry with my wife.

The Lord has commanded that I love my wife as Christ loved the church.

1. That is impossible, I cannot do that, it is not in me.

2. But because of the blood (merits) of Christ I can approach the throne of God.

3. Approaching the throne, I consent for God to have my will in this matter.

4. I then through the leading of the Spirit accept the divine power of the promise of God, to love my wife as Christ loved the church.

5. God by a miraculous act of His Spirit makes this happen.

So:

Tempted.

Accept Self is useless.

Plead Merits of Christ.

Approach God.

Receive the promise.

Promise carried out by God.

Victory...

Your thoughts?

Mark

[Michaeneu]

It's called walking after the spirit and not the flesh.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8:3-4

Our part is cooperation or submission to the Spirit of Yahweh; therein lies choice.

Michael

[Twilight]

It's called walking after the spirit and not the flesh.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8:3-4

Our part is cooperation or submission to the Spirit of Yahweh; therein lies choice.

Michael

Agreed. :-)

May I add:

Part of that is receiving the victory that God supplies.

Sometimes we are aware of our conscience telling us the difference between right or wrong.

Other times we are aware of the leading of the Spirit guiding us intuitively, in the depths of our heart, the depths of our spirit.

But neither of these are sufficient, if we do not accept by faith the victory God is giving us.

There is a difference between being led and receiving victory (if that makes sense).

Mark

[wayfinder]

This whole idea that the flesh is sinful was never spoken of until Paul used it in his teaching, except in Gnostic theology. Can someone show me where this "flesh is sin" occurs anywhere, in the Bible, outside of the teaching of Paul?

[Twilight]

This whole idea that the flesh is sinful was never spoken of until Paul used it in his teaching, except in Gnostic theology. Can someone show me where this "flesh is sin" occurs anywhere, in the Bible, outside of the teaching of Paul?

Have you asked this to understand Pauls teaching or to discredit Paul?

I ask this before taking the time to answer as if it is the second, I will not spend time on that issue, with so many other threads saturated with this false teaching already...

In love,

Mark :-)

[wayfinder]

I understand Paul's teaching perfectly well and I know better than to try and convence anyone on this forum, or in Christianity for that matter, about the credibility or discredibility of Paul. My question is about the understanding that the flesh is sinful or that sin indwells the flesh/material substance, which is the body of dust into which God breathed the breath/spirit of life.

[Twilight]

I understand Paul's teaching perfectly well and I know better than to try and convence anyone on this forum, or in Christianity for that matter, about the credibility or discredibility of Paul. My question is about the understanding that the flesh is sinful or that sin indwells the flesh/material substance, which is the body of dust into which God breathed the breath/spirit of life.

My understanding is this:

Man is sinful.

His body contains "lusts" and "desires" that are evil.

But mans "soul" or "psyche" also appreciates and likes that sin.

His fallen "spirit" also then is bound and appreciates and accepts that sin.

So all of man is "sinful".

----------------------

What Paul is talking about here, is the "leading" of the flesh.

The "leading" of the desires of the flesh.

In the "born again" believer.

There is the indwelling Spirit leading one way.

And the sin in us pulling the other way.

So the "body of sin/lusts" will call a man to sin.

And the Spirit communing with our spirit will call a man to obedience of God.

Again, my current understanding and I do not pretend to understand all of it.

Mark :-)

[wayfinder]

What I am trying to reconcile is that the flesh has a consciousness apart from the spirit/breath. When God formed Adam of the dust of the ground, that dust did not have a conscious will until the breath/spirit of life was breathed into Adam's nostrils. Adam did not become a living being until the breath was given; therefore the idea of sinful flesh and the righteous breath/spirit is foreign to me.

[Twilight]

What I am trying to reconcile is that the flesh has a consciousness apart from the spirit/breath. When God formed Adam of the dust of the ground, that dust did not have a conscious will until the breath/spirit of life was breathed into Adam's nostrils. Adam did not become a living being until the breath was given; therefore the idea of sinful flesh and the righteous breath/spirit is foreign to me.

Okay. :-)

There was the breath of God who breathed His Spirit and formed a "spirit" in man.

And the body (dust).

Combined they produced a living "soul".

A person or personality.

-------------------

So originally Mans spirit was supreme, his "soul" followed the inclination of his spirit and his "body/flesh" were in subjection to that.

Then after sin, the body controlled the mind and feelings which deadened mans spirit.

So the order of authority was:

Spirit

Soul

Body

Which became after the fall:

Body

Soul

Spirit

-----------------

So in our fallen state, the bodys lusts and desires tend to dictate to our soul what to do. The "body" or "desires/lusts" are in charge.

So our body "communicates" certain lusts and desires to us.

That is then "comprehended" by the mind (a function of the soul) and carried out as an express command.

So the body/flesh has the ability to send "needs" to the mind, which the mind agrees with.

I do not therefore see that Paul is saying here that the "body" has a "mind", but the "desires and lusts" of the body overpower the "mind".

Does that make any sense?

Mark

[wayfinder]

That is an explanation, but if the body tempts the soul then why do we think that it is the evil one that tempts the soul/mind? If it is the evil one that tempts the flesh than the flesh must have a will apart from the soul.

[Twilight]

That is an explanation, but if the body tempts the soul then why do we think that it is the evil one that tempts the soul/mind? If it is the evil one that tempts the flesh than the flesh must have a will apart from the soul.

The enemy attacks "through" the mind.

He wants to insert a thought into the mind to "activate" the lust in the body.

------------

Imagine going fishing using a fishing rod.

You cast your hook into the water.

Now if it is a plastic hook it floats on the water.

So you use a metal hook which is weighted.

This then goes "under" the water.

Where the fish are.

This is what satan does, he goes "fishing".

When he has the fish, then he controls the whole pond.

------------

Does that make sense?

------------

Jesus teaches that out of the heart are the issues of life.

Satan wants to gain control of the heart.

His access is only through the "mind", he cannot have any access without our "will" agreeing to it.

So he trys to first of all "insert" things into the heart through the mind.

Then he "pulls" on those things in the heart through the mind.

But Jesus is now the King of our hearts and if we are aware of this type of attack, when the enemy goes fishing, he does not catch the fish he wants, but finds a very strong opponent under the water.

Christ Himself.

Mark :-)

[Michaeneu]

But its was not only the flesh of man that was effected by the fall noted by the increase of the woman’s sorrows in conception but the earth was also subject to the curse.

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” Gen. 3:16-19

I must agree with those that interpret this as an overall increase in entropy as the curse, Christian epistemology. The flesh of man became subject to that increase of entropy which inverted the spirit, soul and body order. The earth also fell subject to this increased entropy. In the age to come the earth shall make strides to being restored to the original order of entropy and man will put on the incorruptible flesh.

Michael

[Twilight]

But its was not only the flesh of man that was effected by the fall noted by the increase of the woman’s sorrows in conception but the earth was also subject to the curse.

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” Gen. 3:16-19

I must agree with those that interpret this as an overall increase in entropy as the curse, Christian epistemology. The flesh of man became subject to that increase of entropy which inverted the spirit, soul and body order. The earth also fell subject to this increased entropy. In the age to come the earth shall make strides to being restored to the original order of entropy and man will put on the incorruptible flesh.

Michael

I find it interesting Michael that the last thing that is dealt with is the "flesh".

We have the renewed "spirit" now.

We have the renewed "soul" (mind/character etc), now.

But the "renewed body" is received when Jesus comes.

This would further support the idea of Pauls that the flesh is indeed the object of attack and is the last thing to be completely "healed".

Mark :-)

[Michaeneu]

Originally Posted By: Michaeneu

But its was not only the flesh of man that was effected by the fall noted by the increase of the woman’s sorrows in conception but the earth was also subject to the curse.

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” Gen. 3:16-19

I must agree with those that interpret this as an overall increase in entropy as the curse, Christian epistemology. The flesh of man became subject to that increase of entropy which inverted the spirit, soul and body order. The earth also fell subject to this increased entropy. In the age to come the earth shall make strides to being restored to the original order of entropy and man will put on the incorruptible flesh.

Michael

I find it interesting Michael that the last thing that is dealt with is the "flesh".

We have the renewed "spirit" now.

We have the renewed "soul" (mind/character etc), now.

But the "renewed body" is received when Jesus comes.

This would further support the idea of Pauls that the flesh is indeed the object of attack and is the last thing to be completely "healed".

Mark :-)

That's the whole object of overcoming in this age to inherit the kingdom in the next.

Michael

[wayfinder]

Joh 6:56

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Joh 6:63

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

[Michaeneu]

Joh 6:56

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Joh 6:63

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Is this in Gnostic fashion, or Paul's expository? I see the scriptures support Paul's expository and not Augustine's. We can't inherit the kingdom in the corruptible flesh subject to the extraordinary effects of entropy. Extraordinary entropy is working on our members to war against man’s spirit and make it subject to the flesh. Only being born again successfully strides against the flesh again. That is Paulian expository.

[wayfinder]

The summation statement of the Son of God I find interesting. The Spirit gives life, this harkens back to creation. On the sixth day God formed mankind of the dust of the ground. The forming of mankind included the design of the functional structures which constitute the flesh, these include the functional parts of the cell as well as the cell itself. The breath of life/spirit breathed into the nostrils of man started the physiological process of the physical structures of the flesh and man became a living soul; therefore giving life to the dust. The flesh accounts for nothing, as the Son of God says, for without the spirit/breath it is only dust.

The words of the Son of God are spirit/breath of life, He is saying that my words, when internalized/consumed, will change the dust/flesh into spirit and the result is eternal life. The born again of the spirit is the end of the dust/flesh and the beginning of spiritual life result of the internalizing of the words of truth.

[Guest]

The words of the Son of God are spirit/breath of life, He is saying that my words, when internalized/consumed, will change the dust/flesh into spirit and the result is eternal life. The born again of the spirit is the end of the dust/flesh and the beginning of spiritual life result of the internalizing of the words of truth.

The dust flesh will be with us until Jesus comes to take us home. Then we will be given a glorified body.

That's why we are to walk after the spirit, and not after the flesh.

[Twilight]

The summation statement of the Son of God I find interesting. The Spirit gives life, this harkens back to creation. On the sixth day God formed mankind of the dust of the ground. The forming of mankind included the design of the functional structures which constitute the flesh, these include the functional parts of the cell as well as the cell itself. The breath of life/spirit breathed into the nostrils of man started the physiological process of the physical structures of the flesh and man became a living soul; therefore giving life to the dust. The flesh accounts for nothing, as the Son of God says, for without the spirit/breath it is only dust.

The words of the Son of God are spirit/breath of life, He is saying that my words, when internalized/consumed, will change the dust/flesh into spirit and the result is eternal life. The born again of the spirit is the end of the dust/flesh and the beginning of spiritual life result of the internalizing of the words of truth.

Please let me share a different view:

The process is quite interesting.

The Holy Spirit breathes into man and creates "mans spirit".

When we are born again, it is the "spirit" in man that is given new life, that is resurrected.

That new life in the "spirit of man" then travels outward to the soul first and then the body last.

So the first thing that is changed is the heart of man, his spirit (the heart is the seat of the spirit and the first dwelling place of the Holy Spirit).

Then the "soul" is changed (our thoughts and feelings/mind) as our regenerated spirit regains control of the mind.

Then our body is changed (lusts etc subdued) by our spirit directing our mind and will.

So it starts in the heart and works its way through until even the flesh is bought into subjugation to the Holy Spirit as He directs us through our "spirit".

Once again, this is my current understanding.

Mark :-)

[Dr. Rich]

Is there really any reason why no one can answer your simple question Wayfinder? The questions was, and still is: "Can someone show me where this "flesh is sin" occurs anywhere, in the Bible, outside of the teaching of Paul?"

If the answer is yes, then please provide the text. If the answer is no, then you don't have to answer because you can't.

This question is a good foundational question.

[Guest]

It might not be the excact words of Paul, but it means the excact same thing he's saying.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Your writing style belies your age Rich.

[Dr. Rich]

The verse you give is talking about a whole human soul--both body and spirit. Try again Richard.

[Guest]

Why should I try again? If it means all that, then the flesh is included.

[Michaeneu]

Is there really any reason why no one can answer your simple question Wayfinder? The questions was, and still is: "Can someone show me where this "flesh is sin" occurs anywhere, in the Bible, outside of the teaching of Paul?"

If the answer is yes, then please provide the text. If the answer is no, then you don't have to answer because you can't.

This question is a good foundational question.

You haven’t been truly paying attention.

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” Gen. 3:16-19

Not only was the flesh of man affected by the fall, noted by the increase of the woman’s sorrows in conception, but the earth was also subject to the curse. This is best expressed as an overall increase in entropy as the curse, Christian epistemology. The flesh of man became subject to that increase of entropy which inverted the spirit, soul and body order. In the age to come the earth shall make strides to being restored to the original order of entropy and man will put on the incorruptible flesh.

All flesh and the world are under a curse. All became subject to Satan and this curse. The greater question IS, how can someone like you continue to evade these ramifications and that the expression "sinful flesh" sums up what happened at the fall of man?

Michael

[skyblue888]

"The flesh, of itself, cannot act contrary to the will of God."

The battle is in the realm of the mind. The mind is the citadel but since the mind of man is fallen it is utterly helpless in the battle against the desires of a fallen sinful flesh and therefore the mind of man must become one with the mind of Christ if there is to be complete victory.

"We have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor.2:16.

By daily appropriating to ourselves the merits of the blood of Christ we receive the mind of Christ according to the commandment, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus," and if we consent Christ empties us of self and the victory is ours, victory over all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and the Holy Spirit impresses the character of Christ upon us. The gift of the Holy Spirit, rich, full, and abundant, is to us as an encompassing wall of fire that the powers of hell shall not prevail against. The soul that is thus kept by the heavenly agencies becomes impregnable to the assaults of Satan.

sky

In chapter 7 of Romans the mind is controlled by the flesh, sinful flesh. In that sense the man is married to the flesh and the flesh is the husband. In Romans 8 the flesh is controlled by the mind which has become one with the mind of Christ. Christ is the new man, the new husband.