The Church, the State and marriage

[Stan]

I tend to agree with Tom's view of marriage/sex. The Christian Church has handed that over to the state for the most part, and then complain on how they are dealing with it. This is not true in all parts of the world, even not all parts of North America. Unless things have changed, the Catholic Church in parts of Canada still manage that.

The criminal code for where I live, defines polygamy not as being married, but rather have sex with people. This, I was told, goes back to the foundation for British Common Law.

There may be a Biblical Passage that says you have to inform the Gov't or get their approval for a Marriage but I have not looked that hard for one.

[Stan]

Quebec which draws its source from the Napoleonic Code not the Common Law.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know what Tom's view of marriage and sex is but the Bible does not teach that having sex and getting married are one in the same. In fact, the Bible says that if a man has sex with a virgin he must marry her but the virgin's father has a right to refuse him the daughter's hand in marriage. If marriage and sex were the same thing there would not be such a distinction.

I do agree that civil and religious marriage should be seperate. The church should not have the civil authority to marry. In Latin America the Catholic church does have such civil authority but no other church does. So when Protestants get married they either have a church wedding and go to the Justice of the Peace between the wedding and the reception or they hire a JP to come to the church and they have two services wrapped up into one.

[Woody]

Quote:

If marriage and sex were the same thing there would not be such a distinction.

Why not? As we know ... there are two kinds of marriage ... religious and civil. If you are married according to God and with God ... is it not advisable to also be married according to civil laws?

[Woody]

Good Point Dgrimm.

When did he create civil marriage? This would be important to know in this discussion.

[phkrause]

Very good point dgrimm

pk

[phkrause]

It definitely would be interesting to know dgrimm.

pk

[Stan]

Does the Church use the State to define was sin is?

[phkrause]

I don't believe so, and I think I get what your point is Stan.

pk

[there buster]

Quote:

Does the Church use the State to define was sin is?

Not germane to the subject line.

[Dr. Shane]

For me, the Bible defines sin, not the state.

[Stan]

OK case study time

Man cheated on his wife, several times, lots of abuse etc etc he left. He is not wanting to do the divorce for a number of selfish reason.

Woman, wants to get married again, to a real decent widower.

Can she has a Wedding in a Church while the civil marriage is not completed, and may take 2 years?

The Church recognizes she can marry,

[GreatLakesGramma]

Personally, I would feel it necessary to wait until the civil marriage is legally ended. Because the Bible tells us to obey the laws of our governments, except when they require us to disobey God's laws.

[phkrause]

Good point GLG, I think all of us forget that, I know I just did.

pk

[phkrause]

you expect us to buy that dgrimm?

pk

[phkrause]

OK no problem dgrimm.

pk

[Stan]

I do not want to give the impression that this is a huge matter to me at all. It is not.

I do feel for those who do belong to a Church that recognized that one party is free to marry, and yet will not support a Christian Marriage until, sometimes years later, the Gov't finally says ok.

There are a lot of empty pews because of this.

[bonnie]

I do not want to give the impression that this is a huge matter to me at all. It is not.

I do feel for those who do belong to a Church that recognized that one party is free to marry, and yet will not support a Christian Marriage until, sometimes years later, the Gov't finally says ok.

There are a lot of empty pews because of this.

Most states if not all have no fault divorce. If one wants a divorce the other has a hard time stopping it

[Woody]

HEY ALL

I MUST have hiccuped again

dgrimm60

[Stan]

There is about 240 countries in the world. Some Countries only recognize around 200.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I expect the sort of situation you mentioned is a lot more common in other countries. I would not want to pass judgment on someone in such a situation.

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't know what Tom's view of marriage and sex is but the Bible does not teach that having sex and getting married are one in the same. In fact, the Bible says that if a man has sex with a virgin he must marry her but the virgin's father has a right to refuse him the daughter's hand in marriage. If marriage and sex were the same thing there would not be such a distinction...

I assume you are referring to the Mosaic law found in Deuteronomy 22:28-29. If you read it carefully it doesn't say that after the man has sex with the virgin that he had to then marry her. More precisely it says that "she shall be his wife because he violated [had sex with] her." Having sex with her made her his wife. If the woman was already married it was adultery which had a death penalty. If a man and woman had sex and did not stay together as husband and wife it was fornication, which also carried a death penalty. They were treated the same as adulterers in violation of the seventh commandment because they didn't respect that joining of a man and a woman as one to be permanent as God intended.

Tom

[phkrause]

Tom I was thinking along those same lines. I also thought I had read somewhere that if two people have sex together (and I'm speaking of a man and a woman) that God considers them married. Forgot where I read that! Alzheimers kicking in.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

I assume you are referring to the Mosaic law found in Deuteronomy 22:28-29. If you read it carefully it doesn't say that after the man has sex with the virgin that he had to then marry her.

Tom

Actually that is what it says. Although I was referring to Exodus 22:16, 17. Both passages are saying basically the same thing. First the man has sex with the woman. Then he pays the father. Then they are married. The father of the woman gets paid before they are married. If the father refuses to allow the man to marry his daughter, the man still has to pay but doesn't get to marry her.

[Tom Wetmore]

That's how it's translated from Hebrew to English. As it literally reads, he pays the bride price because he already made her his wife. That is the result caused by having sex with her. Even if the woman's father will not let her go he still gets compensated with the dowry because she won't be anyone else's wife now that she is not a virgin. The price for having sex with a virgin is the purchase price of a wife. That is because taking a woman's virginity is the same as taking her as a wife.