Individuality in Religion by A.T. Jones

[skyblue888]

Jones won the debate, because the time was not yet. When the time does come, though, it will happen - no matter how strong our opposition...because the time for it will have come.

Ted

_____________

Ted, it is not that the time had not come. The time had come for the latter rain message had begun to be proclaimed at Minneapolis in 1888. This Sunday Bill was defeated in Congress because the light that was to illuminate the whole earth was resisted by the professed people of God. (1 S.M.234,235; T.M.467)

The Bible tells us that there is nothing new under the sun. History repeats itself. Our eyes are to be directed to the United States for it is there that the image of the beast will be made first and then every country on the globe will folllow their example. But the Lord will not allow it until He has a people ready.

We are living in the time of "added probation" for the professed people of God to receive the 1888 message of the merits and righteousness of Christ and to become familiar with the principles and arguments presented before Congress by brother Jones at that time.

sky

[skyblue888]

ARGUMENT.

Senator Blair.–-You have a full hour, Professor. It is now half past one.

Mr. Jones.–-There are three particular lines in which I wish to conduct the argument: First, the principles upon which we stand; second, the historical view; and, third, the practical aspect of the question. The principle upon which we stand is that civil government is civil, and has nothing to do in the matter of legislation, with religious observances in any way. The basis of this is found in the words of Jesus Christ in Matt. 22:21. When the Pharisees asked whether it was lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not, he replied:

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s."

In this the Saviour certainly separated that which pertains to Caesar from that which pertains to God. We are not to render to Caesar that which pertains to God; we are not to render to God by Caesar that which is God’s.

Senator Blair.–-May not the thing due to Caesar be due to God also?

Mr. Jones.–-No, sir. If that be so, then the Saviour did entangle himself in his talk, the very thing which they wanted him to do. The record says that they sought "how they might entangle him in his talk." Having drawn the distinction which he has, between that which belongs to Caesar and that which belongs to God, if it be true that the same things belong to both, then he did entangle himself in his talk; and where is the force in his words which command us to render to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar, and to God the things that are God’s?

Senator Blair.–-Is it not a requirement of God’s that we render to Caesar that which is due to Caesar?

Mr. Jones –-Yes.

Senator Blair –-If Caesar is society, and the Sabbath is required for the good of society, does not God require us to establish the Sabbath for the good of society? and if society makes a law accordingly, is it not binding?

Mr. Jones.–-It is for the good of society that men shall be Christians; but it is not in the province of the State to make Christians. For the State to undertake to do so would not be for the benefit of society; it never has been, and it never can be.

[Ted Oplinger]

Jones won the debate, because the time was not yet. When the time does come, though, it will happen - no matter how strong our opposition...because the time for it will have come.

Ted

_____________

Ted, it is not that the time had not come. The time had come for the latter rain message had begun to be proclaimed at Minneapolis in 1888. This Sunday Bill was defeated in Congress because the light that was to illuminate the whole earth was resisted by the professed people of God. (1 S.M.234,235; T.M.467)

The Bible tells us that there is nothing new under the sun. History repeats itself. Our eyes are to be directed to the United States for it is there that the image of the beast will be made first and then every country on the globe will folllow their example. But the Lord will not allow it until He has a people ready.

We are living in the time of "added probation" for the professed people of God to receive the 1888 message of the merits and righteousness of Christ and to become familiar with the principles and arguments presented before Congress by brother Jones at that time.

sky

I do agree the dialogue you are posting does contain the important message we need to read, Sky. My points are not directed to the importance of the message - but toward 1) how to frame the debate to preach the message for the current time (not 125 years ago), and 2) the purpose of God's timing in the unfolding of end events.

If it was indeed time for the Latter Rain to fall and the Loud Cry given, then Jones would have necessarily lost that debate, as the Sunday Law was poised to be enacted for the express purpose of the placing before the people a clear, decisive choice on the issue of worship - exactly the message the Latter Rain/Loud Cry is to appeal to. What we see as obstacles, God sees are stepping stones to propel upward.

Everything was in place - except the majority will of God's people. Sadly, to prevent the body of Christ to be torn asunder, EGW affirmed added probation was needed for the Remnant to wander in its spiritual wilderness, until God brings the issue up again to a Remnant tired of wandering and eager to come home.

Jones prevailed, as God knew there already elements within the Remnant who would prevail among the leadership and stall the Latter Rain through rejection during the coming years. I say "stall" because the Latter Rain/Loud Cry will commence one day - people can only stall God for so long before God chooses to move on anyway. That is why I believe EGW called the continuing of time "added probation". However, added probation can only last for so long.

When the debate is "lost", it will be because God has shifted gears, and enough of his Remnant are ready to take up the work that should have been 125 years ago. They will look at it not as a defeat, but as the precise moment God will powerfully wrap up the Gospel work with the Latter Rain/Loud Cry. Unfortunately, a good many SDA's will get surprised by it all, when they really do not need to be. That is why EGW also wrote that many in the Remnant will have to learn lessons and do their work under hardship and persecution, when they could have done so in more gentle, peaceful times.

I agree whole-heartedly with the point we need to take to heart the 1888 message borne by Jones and Waggoner - but I not agree it will unfold as it did last time (much to the chagrin of many nominal, comfortable SDA's - because they expect the debate to go precisely the way it did for Jones).

We must remember the Mark of the Beast and the death decree both come during the time when the earth is lighted by God's glory with the Latter Rain/Loud Cry.

Do keep that dialogue coming Sky - it is an interesting read.

Blessings,

[skyblue888]

Senator Blair.–-Do you not confuse this matter? A thing may be required for the good of society, and for that very reason be in accordance with the will and the command of God. God issues His commands for the good of society, does He not? God does not give us commands that have no relation to the good of society.

Mr. Jones.–-His commands are for the good of man.

Senator Blair.–-Man is society. It is made up of individual men.

Mr. Jones.–-But in that which God has issued to man for the good of men He has given those things which pertain solely to man’s relationship to his God; and He has also given things which pertain to man’s relationship to his fellow-men. With those things in which our duty pertains to our fellow-men, civil government can have something to do.

Senator Blair.–-Man would obey God in obeying civil society.

Mr. Jones.–-I will come to that point. In the things which pertain to our duty to God, with the individual’s right of serving God as one’s conscience dictates, society has nothing to do; but in the formation of civil society, there are certain rights surrendered to the society by the individual, without which society could not be organized.

Senator Blair.–-That is not conceded. When was this doctrine of a compact in society made? It is the philosophy of an infidel.

Mr. Jones.--It is made wherever you find men together.

Senator Blair.–-Did you and I ever agree to it? Did it bind us before we were compos mentis?

Mr. Jones.–-Certainly. Civil government is an ordinance of God.

Senator Blair.–-Then it is not necessarily an agreement of man?

Mr. Jones.–-Yes, sir, it springs from the people.

Senator Blair.–-As to the compact in society that is talked about, it is not conceded that it is a matter of personal and individual agreement. Society exists altogether independent of the volition of those who enter into it. However, I shall not interrupt you further. I only did this because of our private conversation, in which I thought you labored under a fallacy in your fundamental proposition, that would lead all the way through your argument. I suggested that ground, and that is all.

Mr. Jones.–I think the statement of the Declaration of Independence is true, that "Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Senator Blair.–I do not controvert that.

Mr. Jones.–-Of all men in the world, Americans ought to be the last to deny the social compact theory of civil government. On board the Mayflower, before the Pilgrim Fathers ever set foot on these shores, the following was written:–-

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign, Lord King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and the honor of our king and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politick, for our better ordering and preservation, and furtherance of the ends aforesaid: and by virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and officers, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod, the eleventh of November, in the reign of our sovereign, Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland, the fifty-fourth, Anno Domini, 1620."

The next American record is that of the fundamental orders of Connecticut, 1638-39, and reads as follows:–-

[skyblue888]

"Forasmuch as it hath pleased the Allmighty God by the wise disposition of His divine prudence so to order and dispose of things that we, the inhabitants and residents of Windsor, and Harteford, and Wethersfield, are now cohabiting and dwelling in and upon the river of Conectecotte and the lands thereunto aditioned; and well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people there should be an orderly and decent government established acording to God, to order and dispose of the affairs of the people at all seasons, as occation shall require; do therefore assotiate and conioyne ourselves to be as one public State or commonwelth; and do for ourselves and our successors and such as shall aditioned to us at any time hereafter, enter into combination and confederation together," etc.

And, sir, the first Constitution of your own State –1784–in its bill of rights, declares:–-

I. "All men are born equally free and independent; therefore, all government of right originates from the people, is founded in consent, and instituted for the general good."

III. "When men enter into a state of society, they surrender some of their natural rights to that society, in order to insure the protection of others; and without such an equivalent, the surrender is void."

IV. "Among the natural rights, some are in their very nature unalienable, because no equivalent can be received for them. Of this kind are the rights of conscience."

And in Part 2, of that same Constitution, under the division of the "form of government," are these words:–-

"The people inhabiting the territory formerly called the province of New Hampshire, do hereby solemnly and mutually agree with each other to form themselves into a free, sovereign, and independent body politic, or State, by the name of the State of New Hampshire."

In the Constitution of New Hampshire of 1792, these articles are repeated word for word. They remain there without alteration in a single letter under the ratification of 1852, and also under the ratification of 1877. Consequently, sir, the very State which sends you to this capitol is founded upon the very theory which you here deny. This is the doctrine of the Declaration of Independence; it is the doctrine of the Scripture; and therefore we hold it to be eternally true.

These sound and genuine American principles–-civil governments deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, and the inalienability of the rights of conscience,–-these are the principles asserted and maintained by Seventh-day Adventists.

Senator Blair–-But society is behind the government which society creates.

Mr. Jones.-–Certainly. All civil government springs from the people, I care not in what form it is.

Senator Blair.–-That is all agreed to.

[skyblue888]

Here we see that Senator Blair shot himself in the foot, so to speak, when he said, "It is not conceded that it is a matter of personal and individual agreement. Society exists altogether independent of the volition of those who enter into it."

A few minutes later he saw his mistake and agreed with brother Jones after he quoted the very words of the Constitution.

sky

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The debate that took place in Congress in 1888 between Senator Blair and A.T. Jones is very much in line with the light revealed in the book Individuality in Religion. Therefore, I wish to post the following for the simple reason that the arguments A.T. Jones presented both from the Scriptures and the facts of History to defeat this Sunday Bill in Congress are the very same arguments we need to be familiar with in case history should be repeated. And we know it will be repeated before the close of human probation.

But Sky - will it be repeated exactly as it was then A. T. Jones won the debate against Sen. Blair? Or will the issue come through an unexpected avenue but same method - like the way Canada's current Sunday Law did?

We were essentially marginalized during the vote in Canada - what we thought were the greatest arguments against the issue, were thwarted simply by shifting the ground rules of why such a law was needed (family, work, and societal good). Worship was not mentioned as a reason for the law - so all our opponents needed to say in defense was that we were making a society issue into a religious argument. We lost the debate before it even started.

I would say that since there will eventually be such a law passed, it will be from an approach we will not expect and are ill-equipped to deal with.

See the "new holy alliance" between trade unions and churches in Europe - arguing for Sunday Laws on the right to have a day off rather than be forced to work 7 days a week (as if that were actually Europe's problem - working too many days per week!!).

In the Blair vs A.T.Jones case they argue Matt22 and Romans 13 for a while.

That will not happen again because neither congress nor the Senate will pull out a Bible - few if any of them read it and it is no longer an agreed upon document having any recognized authority for this wayward nation.

I agree that just as Ellen White states - the first level of NSL will be entirely social, humanitarian, good of society -- as if mankind needs make it illegal for SDAs to work at home around the yard or in the office on Sunday.

During that first phase of the NSL - Ellen White strongly argues that we not violate the Law - even though we may choose to debate it when the opportunity presents itself.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Mr. Jones.–-But the people, I care not how many there are,have no right to invade your relationship to God, nor mine. That rests between the individual and God, through faith in Jesus Christ; and as the Savior has made this distinction between that which pertains to Caesar and that which is God’s, when Caesar exacts of men that which pertains to God, then Caesar is out of his place, and in so far as Caesar is obeyed there, God is denied. When Caesar–-civil government– exacts of men that which is God’s, he demands what does not belong to him; in so doing Caesar usurps the place and the prerogative of God, and every man who regards God or his own rights before God, will disregard all such interference on the part of Caesar.

This argument is confirmed by the apostle’s commentary upon Christ’s words. In Rom. 13:1-9, is written:–-

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. For, for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

It is easy to see that this scripture is but an exposition of Christ’s words, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s."

In the Saviour’s command to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, there is plainly a recognition of the rightfulness of civil government, and that civil government has claims upon us which we are in duty bound to recognize, and that there are things which duty requires us to render to the civil government.

[BobRyan]

That is the Matt 22 - Romans 13 part of the debate that could not be had again.

[skyblue888]

This scripture in Romans 13 simply states the same thing in other words:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Again: the Savior’s words were in answer to a question concerning tribute. They said to him, "Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?"

Rom.13:6 refers to the same thing, saying, "For, for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing."

In answer to the question of the Pharisees about the tribute, Christ said, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s." Rom.13:7, taking up the same thought, says, "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

These references make positive that which we have stated,–-that this portion of Scripture (Rom.13:1-9) is a divine commentary upon the words of Christ in Matt. 22:17-21.

The passage refers first to civil government, the higher powers-–the powers that be. Next it speaks of rulers, as bearing the sword and attending upon matters of tribute.

Then it commands to render tribute to whom tribute is due, and says, "Owe no man any thing; but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."

Then he refers to the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth commandments, and says, "If there by any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'"

There are other commandments of this same law to which Paul refers. There are the four commandments of the first table of the law,–-the commandments which say, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me;" "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or nay likeness of any thing;" "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;" "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."

Then there is the other commandment in which are briefly comprehended all these, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength."

Paul knew full well these commandments. Why, then, did he say, "If there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"?–-Because he was writing concerning the principles set forth by the Savior, which relate to our duties to civil government.

[BobRyan]

Indeed Romans 13 is a great place to make the point - but not to congress bent on a social law and totally uninformed about the Bible or the idea that a "Bible reason" to do something should matter to a politician.

Recall that in the last Presidential election it was made very clear to the candidates - that a person is "not fit" to be the President if they choose to believe the Bible instead of wild doctrines and myths from the realm of evolutionism.

We have turned a corner. The new rules for debate at the government level are not what they were in the 19th century when A.T. Jones was making his case.

[skyblue888]

Bob, I don't agree with your position that we have turned a corner. There is nothing new under the sun. The principles and the arguments that were debated in 1888 have not changed.

Anyway, I will let the reader decide for himself as the debate progresses.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Mr. Jones.–-Our duties under civil government pertain solely to the government and to our fellowmen, because the powers of civil government pertain solely to men in their relations one to another, and to the government. But the Savior’s words in the same connection entirely separated that which pertains to God from that which pertains to civil government. The things which pertain to God are not to be rendered to civil government–-to the powers that be; therefore Paul, although knowing full well that there were other commandments, said,

"If If there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;" that is, if there be any other commandment which comes into the relation between man and civil government, it is comprehended in this saying, that he shall love his neighbor as himself; thus showing conclusively that the powers that be, though ordained of God, are so ordained simply in things pertaining to the relation of man with his fellow-men, and in those things alone.

Further: as in this divine record of the duties that men owe to the powers that be, there is no reference whatever to the first table of the law, it therefore follows that the powers that be, although ordained of God, have nothing whatever to do with the relations which men bear toward God.

As the ten commandments contain the whole duty of man, and as in the enumeration here given of the duties that men owe to the powers that be, there is no mention of any of the things contained in the first table of the law, it follows that none of the duties enjoined in the first table of the law of God, do men owe to the powers that be; that is to say, again, that the powers that be, although ordained of God, are not ordained of God in anything pertaining to a single duty enjoined in any one of the first four of the ten commandments. These are duties that men owe to God, and with those the powers that be can of right have nothing to do, because Christ has commanded to render unto God–-not to Caesar, nor by Caesar–-that which is God’s.

Therefore, as in his comment upon the principle which Christ established, Paul has left out of the account the first four commandments, so we deny, forever, the right of any civil government to legislate in anything that pertains to men's duty to God under the first four commandments. This Sunday bill does propose to legislate in regard to the Lord’s day. If it is the Lord’s day, we are to render it to the Lord, not to Caesar. When Caesar exacts it of us, he is exacting what does not belong to him, and is demanding of us that with which he should have nothing to do.

[skyblue888]

Senator Blair.–-Would it answer your objection in that regard, if, instead of saying "the Lord’s day", we should say, "Sunday"?

Mr. Jones–-No, sir, Because the underlying principle, the sole basis, of Sunday, is ecclesiastical, and legislation in regard to it is ecclesiastical legislation. I shall come more fully to the question you ask, presently.

Now do not misunderstand us on this point. We are Seventh-day Adventists; but if this bill were in favor of enforcing the observance of the seventh day as the Lord’s day, we would oppose it just as much as we oppose it as it is now, for the reason that civil government has nothing to do with what we owe to God, or whether we owe anything or not, or whether we pay it or not.

Allow me again to refer to the words of Christ to emphasize this point. That upon the subject of tribute, whether it was lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not. In answering the question, Christ established this principle:

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s."

That tribute money was Caesar’s; it bore his image and superscription; it was to be rendered to him. Now, it is a question of rendering Sabbath observance, and it is a perfectly legitimate and indeed a necessary question to ask right here: Is it lawful to render the Lord’s day observance to Caesar? The reply may be in His own words: Show me the Lord’s day; whose image and superscription does it bear?–-The Lord's, to be sure. This very bill which is under discussion here to-day declares it to be the Lord’s day. Then the words of Christ apply to this. Bearing the image and superscription of the Lord, Render therefore to the Lord the things that are the Lord’s, and to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. It does not bear the image and superscription of Caesar; it does not belong to him; it is not to be rendered to him.

Again: take the institution under the word Sabbath: Is it lawful to render Sabbath observance to Caesar or not? Show us the Sabbath; whose image and superscription does it bear? The commandment of God says, it "is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God."

It bears His image and superscription, and His only; it belongs wholly to Him; Caesar can have nothing to do with it. It does not belong to Caesar; its observance cannot be rendered to Caesar, but only to God; for the commandment is,

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

If it is not kept holy, it is not kept at all. Therefore, belonging to God, bearing His superscription, and not that of Caesar, according to Christ’s commandment it is to be rendered only to God; because we are to render to God that which is God's, and the Sabbath is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. Sabbath observance, therefore, or Lord’s day observance, whichever you may choose to call it, never can be rendered to Caesar.

And Caesar never can demand it without demanding that which belongs to God, or without putting himself in the place of God, and usurping the prerogative of God.

Therefore, we say that if this bill were framed in behalf of the real Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, the day which we observe; if this bill proposed to promote its observance, or to compel men to do no work upon that day we would oppose it just as strongly as we oppose it now, and I would stand here at this table and argue precisely as I am arguing against this, and upon the same principle,–-the principle established by Jesus Christ,–-that with that which is God’s the civil government never can of right have anything to do.

[skyblue888]

Mr. Jones.--This Sunday bill proposes to have this Government do just that thing, and therefore I say, without any reflection upon the author of the bill, this national Sunday bill which is under discussion here to-day is anti-christian. But in saying this I am not singling out this contemplated law as worse than all other Sunday laws in the world. There never was a Sunday law that was not anti-christian. and there never can be one that will not be anti-christian.

Senator Blair.--You oppose all the Sunday laws of the country, then?

Mr. Jones.--Yes, sir.

Senator Blair.--You are against all Sunday laws?

Mr. Jones.--Yes, sir; we are against every Sunday law that was ever made in this world, from the first enacted by Constantine to this one now proposed; and we would be equally against a Sabbath law if it were proposed, for that would be antichristian, too.

Senator Blair.--State and national, alike?

Mr. Jones.--State and national, sir. I shall give you historical reasons presently, and the facts upon which these things stand, and I hope they will receive consideration.

George Washington, I believe, is yet held in some respectful consideration--he is by the Seventh-day Adventists at least--and he said, "Every man who conducts himself as a good citizen is accountable alone to God for his religious faith, and is to be protected in worshiping God according to the dictates of his own conscience."

And so should we be protected, so long as we are law-abiding citizens. There are no saloon keepers among us. We are as a body for prohibition; and as for the principles of Christian temperance, we conscientiously practice them. In short, you will find no people in this country or in the world, more peaceable and law-abiding than we endeavor to be. We teach the people according to the Scripture, to be subject to the powers that be; we teach them that the highest duty of the Christian citizen is strictly to obey the law,--to obey it not from fear of punishment, but out of respect for governmental authority, and out of respect for God, and conscience towards Him.

[skyblue888]

Senator Blair.--That is the common Mormon argument. The Mormons say their institution is a matter of religious belief. Everybody concedes their right to believe in Mormonism, but when they come to the point of practicing it, will it not be to the disturbance of others?

Mr. Jones.--I should have come to that, even though you had not asked the question. But as you have introduced it, I will notice it now. My argument throughout is that the civil government can never have anything to do with men's duties under the first four of the ten commandments; and this is the argument embodied in Washington's words. These duties pertain solely to God.

Now polygamy is adultery. But adultery is not a duty that men owe to God, in any way, much less does it come under any of the first four commandments. This comes within the inhibitions of the second table of the law of God--the commandments embracing duty to our neighbor.

How men should conduct themselves toward their fellow-men, civil government must decide; that is the very purpose of its existence. Consequently, the practice of polygamy lying wholly within this realm, is properly subject to the jurisdiction of civil government.

My argument does not in the least degree countenance the principles of Mormonism, nor can it fairly be made to do so. I know that it is offered as a very ready objection; but those who offer it as an objection and as an argument against the principles upon which we stand, thereby make adultery a religious practice. But against all such objection and argument, I maintain that adultery is not in any sense a religious practice. It is not only highly irreligious, but it is essentially uncivil; and because it is uncivil, the civil power has as much right to blot it out as it has to punish murder, or thieving, or perjury, or any other uncivil thing.

[skyblue888]

Mr.Jones--There are also people who believe in community of property in this world. Suppose they base their principles of having all things in common upon the apostolic example. Very good. They have the right to do that. Every one who sells his property and puts it into a common fund, has a right to do that if he chooses; but suppose these men in carrying out that principle, and in claiming that it is a religious ordinance, were to take without consent your property or mine into their community. Then what?--The State forbids it. It does not forbid the exercise of their religion; but it protects your property and mine, and in exercising its prerogative of protection, it forbids theft. And in forbidding theft, the State never asks any questions as to whether thieving is a religious practice. So also as to polygamy, which is practiced among the Mormons. But let us consider this in another view.

It is every man's right in this country, or anywhere else, to worship an idol if he chooses. That idol embodies his conviction of what God is. He can worship only according to his convictions. It matters not what form his idol may have, he has the right to worship it anywhere in all the world, therefore in the United States. But suppose that in the worship of that god he attempts to take the life of one of his fellow-men, and offer it as a human sacrifice. The civil government exists for the protection of life, liberty, property, etc., and it must punish that man for his attempt upon the life of his fellow-man. The civil law protects man's life from such exercise of any one's religion, but in punishing the offender, the State does not consider the question of his religion at all. It would punish him just the same if he made no pretensions to worship or to religion.

It punishes him for his incivility, for his attempt at murder, not for his irreligion. I repeat, the question of religion is not considered by the State; the sole question is, Did he threaten the life of his fellow-man? Civil government must protect its citizens. This is strictly within Caesar's jurisdiction; it comes within the line of duties which the Scripture shows to pertain to our neighbor, and with it Caesar has to do.

Therefore it is true that the State can never of right legislate in regard to any man's religious faith, or in relation to anything in the first four commandments of the decalogue.

But if in the exercise of his religious convictions under the first four commandments, a man invades the rights of his neighbor, as to life, family, property, or character, then the civil government says that it is unlawful. Why? Because it is irreligious or immoral?--Not at all; but because it is uncivil, and for that reason only. It never can be proper for the State to ask any question as to whether any man is religious or not, or whether his actions are religious or not. The sole question must ever be, Is the action civil or uncivil.

[skyblue888]

Senator Blair.--Now apply that right to this case--to the institution of the Sabbath among men for the good of men.

Mr. Jones.--Very good, we will consider that. Here are persons who are keeping Sunday. It is their right to work on every other day of the week. It is their right to work on that day, if they desire; but they are keeping that day, recognizing it as the Sabbath. Now while they are doing that which is their right, here are other people who are keeping Saturday, and others who are keeping Friday. The Mohammedans recognize Friday. But we will confine ourselves to those who keep Saturday, the seventh day, as the Sabbath. Those who keep Sunday, and who want legislation for that day, ask that other people shall be forbidden to work on Sunday, because they say it disturbs their rest, it disturbs their worship, etc.; and they claim that their rights are not properly protected. Do they really believe that in principle? Let us see.

They will never admit (at any rate, I have never yet found one of them who would) that their work on Saturday disturbs the rest, or the worship, of the man who rests on Saturday. If their work on Saturday does not disturb the Sabbath rest, or the worship, of the man who keeps Saturday, then upon what principle is it that our work on Sunday disturbs the rest of those who keep Sunday? I have never found one on that side yet who would admit the principle. If their work does not disturb our rest and our worship, our work cannot disturb their rest or their worship.

More than this: In a general Sunday convention held in San Francisco, at which I was present, there was a person who spoke on this very question. Said he: "There are some people, and a good many of them in this State, who do not believe in Sunday laws, and who keep Saturday as the Sabbath; but," said he, "the majority must rule. The vast majority of the people do keep Sunday; their rights must be respected, and they have a right to enact it into law."

I arose and said, "Suppose the Seventh-day people were in the majority, and they should go to the legislature and ask for a law to compel you to keep Saturday out of respect to their rights. Would you consider it right?" There was a murmur all over the house, "No."

Senator Blair.--Upon what ground did they say, No?

Mr. Jones.--That is what I should like to know. They were not logical. Their answer shows that there is no ground in justice nor in right for their claim that the majority should rule in matters of conscience.

Senator Blair.--That does not follow. At least it does not strike me that it follows. The majority has a right to rule in what pertains to the regulation of society, and if Caesar regulates society, then the majority has a right in this country to say what we shall render to Caesar.

Mr. Jones.--Very good, but the majority has no right to say what we shall render to God; nor has it any right to say that we shall render to Caesar that which is God's. If nine hundred and ninety-nine out of every one thousand people in the United States kept the seventh day, that is, Saturday, and I deemed it my right, and made it my choice, to keep Sunday, they would have no right to compel me to rest on Saturday.

Senator Blair.--In other words, you take the ground that for the good of society, irrespective of the religious aspect of the question, society may not require abstinence from labor on Sabbath, if it disturbs others?

Mr. Jones.--As to its disturbing others, I have proved that it does not. The body of your question states my position exactly.

[skyblue888]

Senator Blair.--This question was passed me to ask: "Is the speaker also opposed to all laws against blasphemy?"

Mr. Jones.--Yes, sir. But not because blasphemy is not wrong, but because civil government cannot define blasphemy, nor punish it. Blasphemy pertains to God, it is an offense against him, it is a sin against him.

Senator Blair.--Suppose the practice of it in society at large is hurtful to society?

Mr. Jones.--That will have to be explained. How is it hurtful to society?

Senator Blair.--Suppose it be hurtful to society in this way: A belief in the existence of God, and reverence for the Creator, and a cultivation of that sentiment in society, is for the good of society; is, in fact, the basis of all law and restraint. If the Almighty, who knows everything, or is supposed to, and has all power, has no right to restrain us, it is difficult to see how we can restrain each other.

Mr. Jones.--He has the right to restrain us. He does restrain us.

Senator Blair.--To commonly blaspheme and deride and ridicule the Almighty, would, of course, have a tendency to bring up the children who are soon to be the State, in an absolute disregard of him and his authority. Blasphemy, as I understand it, is that practice which brings the Creator into contempt and ridicule among his creatures.

Mr. Jones.--What is blasphemy here, would not be blasphemy in China, and many other countries.

Senator Blair.--We are not dealing with pagan communities. A regulation that may be appropriate in a pagan community, would not answer men in a Christian community. Do you mean that there is no such thing as blasphemy?

Mr. Jones.--No; I do not mean that.

Senator Blair.--The Chinaman hardly believes in any god whatever; at least in no such God as we do. Taking our God and these Christian institutions of ours, what do you understand blasphemy to be?

Mr. Jones.--There are many things that the Scriptures show to be blasphemy.

Senator Blair.--The power of the law has undertaken in various States to say that certain things are blasphemy.

Mr. Jones.--Precisely; but if the law proposes to define blasphemy and punish it, why does it not go to the depth of it, and define all and punish all?

Senator Blair.--Perhaps it may not go as far as it ought. You say you are opposed to all laws against blasphemy, cursing, and swearing?

Mr. Jones.--In relation to any one of the first four commandments.

[skyblue888]

Senator Palmer.--Suppose that what is defined as blasphemy in the statutes of the several States, should detract from the observance of the law and regard for it, would you regard laws against it as being improper?

Mr. Jones.--Under the principle that the Scripture lays down, no legislation in any way can be proper in regard to the first four commandments. There may be many ways in which it would appear very appropriate for civil government to do this or to do that; but when you have entered upon such legislation, where will you stop?

Senator Palmer.--Abstaining from blasphemy is a part of the education of the youth of the country.

Mr. Jones.--That is true. If youth are properly educated, they will never blaspheme.

Senator Palmer--We pass laws for the education of the youth. The question is whether abstention from blasphemy could not be included in the scope of education. Take it on that ground.

Mr. Jones.--Idolatry is no more than a violation of the first commandment: "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me;" and if the State can forbid the violation of the third commandment and the fourth, why may it not forbid the violation of the first and the second, and in that case supplant God at once, and establish an earthly theocracy? That is the only logical outcome.

Senator Blair.--Covetousness is a state of mind; but when it becomes practice by stealing--taking from another without consideration--the law interferes.

Mr. Jones.--Certainly.

Senator Palmer.--There is an infection in blasphemy or in covetousness. For instance, if one covetous man in a neighborhood should infuse the whole neighborhood with covetousness to such an extent that all would become thieves, then covetousness would be a proper subject of legislation.

Mr. Jones.--Never! You forbid the theft, not the covetousness. You cannot invade the condition of mind in which lies the covetousness.

Senator Blair.--We do not say that we must invade the condition of mind; but society has a right to make regulations, because those regulations are essential to the good of society. Society by a major vote establishes a regulation, and we have to obey what is settled by the majority.

Mr. Jones.--How shall it be discovered what is blasphemy, as it is only an offense against God? In the Puritan Theocracy of New England, our historian, Bancroft, says that "the highest offense in the catalogue of crimes was blasphemy, or what a jury should call blasphemy."

Senator Blair.--But the law was behind the jury, and said that the practice should be punished. If a jury of twelve men said that one had committed the overt act, then it could be punished. It was the majority who made the law, and the jury only found the question of fact after the law had been violated. The jury did not make the law. This is a question as to making the law.

Mr. Jones.--It is not wholly a question only of making the law. The question is whether the law is right when it is made. There is a limit to the lawmaking power; and that limit is the line which Jesus Christ has drawn. The government has no right to make any law relating to the things that pertain to God, or offenses against God, or religion. It has nothing to do with religion.

[Ted Oplinger]

Good reading, Sky!

Have enjoyed this refresher.

Blessings,

[skyblue888]

Thanks Ted. It gets even better.

Mr. Jones.--Blasphemy, according to Judge Cooley, in his "Constitutional Limitations," "is purposely using words concerning the Supreme Being, calculated and designed to impair and destroy the reverence, respect, and confidence due to him, as the intelligent Creator, Governor, and Judge of the world; ... a bad motive must exist; there must be a willful, malicious attempt to lessen men's reverence for the Deity, or for the accepted religion."

It is seen at a glance that this comes from the old English system of statutes regulating "offenses against God and religion." That is where this statute is placed in every system of civil law; it could not be placed anywhere else. But offenses against God are to be answered for only at His tribunal; and with religion, or offenses against it, the civil power has nothing to do.

It is a perversion of the functions of civil government to have it made a party to religious controversies. It will have ample exercise for its power and jurisdiction to keep religious disputants as well as other people civil, without allowing itself ever to become a partisan in religious disputes and the conservator of religious dogmas.

But according to Judge Cooley's definition, blasphemy is an attempt to lessen men's reverence, not only for the Deity, but for "the accepted religion" as well. But any man in this wide world has the right to lessen men's reverence for the accepted religion, if he thinks that religion to be wrong. Consequently, as I said a moment ago, that which would be counted blasphemy here would not be counted blasphemy in China; and that which is in the strictest accordance with the word of God and the faith of Jesus Christ here, is necessarily blasphemy in China, or in Turkey, or in Russia.

A man who preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ in China commits blasphemy under this definition. He does make a willful attempt to lesson men's reverence for their accepted religion, and for the deities recognized in their religion. He has to do so, if he is ever to get them to believe in Christ and the religion of Christ. He has to bring them to the place where they will have no reverence for their deities or for their accepted religion, before they ever can accept the religion of Jesus Christ.

It is the same way in Turkey, or any other Mohammedan country, or any heathen country. Wherever the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached in any Mohammedan or heathen country, it is blasphemy under this definition, because its sole object is not only to lesson men's reverence for their deities and for their accepted religion, but to turn them wholly from it, and if possible to obliterate it from their minds.

It is so likewise in Russia. Anybody there who speaks against the accepted religion, or against the saints, or their images, is subject to the penalty of blasphemy, which is banishment for life to Siberia.

[skyblue888]

Mr.Jones.--But if blasphemy be a proper subject of legislation by civil government, if it be right for a government to make itself the "defender of the faith," then it is perfectly proper for the laws of China to prohibit under whatever penalty it leases, the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ within the Chinese dominions; because its effect is to lesson men's reverence for the deities recognized by China, and for the accepted religion of the county.

It is the same way in any of the other countries named. And in that case there is no such thing as persecution on account of religion. The only persecutions that have ever been, were because of men's speaking against the accepted religion. If this principle be correct, then the Roman empire did perfectly right in prohibiting under penalty of death the preaching of the religion of Jesus Christ.

Whenever Paul, or any of his brethren, spoke in the Roman empire, they blasphemed according to the Roman law. They were held as blasphemers, and were put to death under the very principle of this definition, which is the principle of the American statutes on the subject of blasphemy. The Christians had to tell the Roman empire that the Roman gods were no gods. They had to tell the Roman empire that the genius of Rome itself, which the Roman system held to be the supreme deity, was not such; but that it was subordinate, and that there was a higher idea of God and of right than the Roman empire or the Roman law knew anything of. They did speak deliberately against the chief deity of Rome, and all the gods of Rome. They did it with the express purpose of destroying reverence for them and for the accepted religion. Rome put them to death. And I repeat, if the principle of the American statutes against blasphemy is correct, then Rome did right.

To make this clearer, I quote a passage from the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania in defense of this principle, in a decision upon this very subject, which says: "To prohibit the open, public, and explicit denial of the popular religion of a country, is a necessary measure to preserve the tranquillity of a government."

That is precisely what the Roman empire did. Christianity did openly, publicly, and explicitly deny the popular religion of the country. It did it with intent to destroy men's reverence for the deities and the religion of that country. Rome prohibited it; and upon the principle of the decision of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, which is the principle of American law on blasphemy, Rome did right, and Christianity was a blaspheming religion. The principle of this decision seems to be that those who represent the popular religion of a country have so little of the real virtue of the religion which they profess, that if anybody speaks against it, it is sure to rouse their combativeness to such a degree as to endanger the public tranquillity.

Therefore, in order to keep civil those who represent the popular religion, the State must forbid anybody to deny that religion.

[skyblue888]

Mr. Jones.--This decision of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania is one of the grand precedents that have been followed in all the later decisions upon this subject in the younger States; but this decision itself followed one by Chief Justice Kent of the Supreme Court of New York in 1811, in which he embodies the same principles. He defends the right of the State to punish such offenses against what he calls a Christian people, and not equally to punish like offenses against the religion of other people in this country, by the following argument:

"Nor are we bound by any expressions in the Constitution, as some have strangely supposed, either not to punish at all, or to punish indiscriminately the like attacks upon the religion of Mohammed, or of the Grand Llama, and for this plain reason: that the case assumes that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors."

This is only to argue that if the morality of the country were engrafted upon the religion of Mohammed or the Grand Llama, and Christians were to speak against and deny that accepted religion, it would be proper that the State should punish those Christians for so doing. If that principle be correct, then a Mohammedan country has the right to prohibit the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ within its limits.

According to these decisions, Luther and the reformers of his day were blasphemers. The penalty was death, in many cases at the stake, yet under this principle the State did right to put them to death in whatever way the law prescribed; because they did certainly make an open, public, and explicit denial of the popular religion of every country in which they lived, and of all Europe; and if the words of Luther were used today in any Catholic country, they would be counted as blasphemous, as a willful and malicious reviling of the accepted religion.

The reformers did hold up to ridicule and contempt the popular religion of all Europe. They did right, too; and when the State punished them, it was but carrying out the principles upheld by Chancellor Kent and the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, and all the other States that have legislated on the subject of religion.

As I have already stated, it was upon this principle precisely that the Roman empire forbade the preaching of the gospel the Christ. It only forbade an open, public, and explicit denial of the popular religion of the country, yet in forbidding that, it forbade the preaching of the gospel of

Christ.

But Christ sent forth His disciples to preach the gospel to every creature, and they did it in the face of the Roman law, and in opposition to the whole power of the Roman empire; and everybody in all the world has an undeniable right to make an open, public, and explicit denial of the popular religion of this country, or any other, if he thinks that religion to be wrong.

[skyblue888]

Mr. Jones.--The principle of these decisions and of the civil statutes against blasphemy, is essentially a pagan principle, and not a Christian principle. It is peculiarly appropriate, therefore, that Chief Justice Kent not only cited the precedents of the church-and-state principles of the colonies and of the British government, but appealed to the pagan

governments of antiquity and the papal institutions of modern Europe, as the basis of his decision. It is true that all these nations have set themselves up as the special guardians of their deities, and have prohibited the denial of the popular religion; and it is equally true that all these nations have resisted every step in enlightenment and progress that has ever been made in the march of time.

Every step forward in religion and in enlightenment has of necessity been taken in the face of all the opposition which these States and empires could bring to bear. But the principles of American institutions are neither pagan nor papal. The principles of the American Constitution which forbids legislation on the subject of religion, are Christian principles. And it is strictly in order for Supreme Courts in making decisions in behalf of what they boast of as the Christian religion, to base their decision upon something else than the course of the pagan governments of antiquity, and the papal institutions of modern Europe.

Upon such a subject it would seem to be proper for them to refer to the teachings and the principles of the Author of Christianity, but singularly enough, it has never been done, and doubtless for the very good reason that it never can be done; for the teachings of Jesus Christ are directly against it. His word forbids civil government to have anything to do with what pertains to God. And instead of teaching His disciples to prosecute, to fine, and to punish by civil law those who speak against them or their religion, He says,

"Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven."

How can men be brought to respect God or Jesus Christ by civil penalties upon their bodies and goods? How can they respect the religion of men who are ready to prosecute and imprison them? Every principle of the thing is contrary both to the spirit and the letter of Christianity. The religion of Jesus Christ properly exemplified in the daily lives of those who profess it, is the best argument and the strongest defense against blasphemy, both as defined by the Scriptures and by the civil statutes.

Laws, therefore, prohibiting "what a jury may call blasphemy," are pagan, and not Christian. The decisions of the Supreme Courts of New York and Pennsylvania upon this subject are pagan decisions, and not Christian; they are based upon pagan precedents, not Christian. The deadly persecutions of all history, pagan, papal, and so-called Protestant, are justified in these decisions.

Michael Servetus was burnt for "blasphemy." The only use that ever has been, or ever is, made of any such laws in any country, is to give some religious bigots who profess the popular religion, an opportunity to vent their wrath upon persons who disagree with them. Any man who really possesses the religion of Christ will have enough of the grace of God to keep him from endangering the public tranquillity when his religion is spoken against.

_________

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or act contrary to our ideas." Desire of Ages,