The Holy Spirit and the heart...

[Twilight]

New Covenant Texts for discussion:

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

--------------------

The bible teaches three specific points about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant that I would like us to discuss:

1. The Holy Spirit makes its dwelling in the heart.

2. The Holy Spirit writes Gods law in the heart.

3. The Holy Spirit communes with us and leads us.

God knows that mans deepest problem is his evil heart.

So He has to deal with that.

To do this, He sends the Holy Spirit to take up residence there.

Once there, we are given a new heart.

This heart has the law of God written into it.

As the heart is the seat of the desires and motives of life, it only makes sense that God needs to "re-write" the operating system.

He also at the same time offers leadership and communion through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

So here we have three simple points to consider and share our view on.

Mark :-)

[karl]

Create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me.

"To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, heart, and soul. The apostle says, "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. But men can never enter heaven with their old tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories. Heaven would be no place of joy to them; for everything would be in collision with their tastes, appetites, and inclinations, and painfully opposed to their natural and cultivated traits of character." Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 190

[teresaq]

are you intending for this to be a discussion where others can have a different viewpoint?

or a sermon on what you believe that you believe we should accept?

The Holy Spirit dwelling within is part of the New Covenant.

Without it, obedience is impossible.

I will be starting a new thread on something that may help clarify some of the confusion that is around this wonderful truth.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

New Covenant Texts for discussion:

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

--------------------

The bible teaches three specific points about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant that I would like us to discuss:

1. The Holy Spirit makes its dwelling in the heart.

2. The Holy Spirit writes Gods law in the heart.

3. The Holy Spirit communes with us and leads us.

God knows that mans deepest problem is his evil heart.

So He has to deal with that.

To do this, He sends the Holy Spirit to take up residence there.

Once there, we are given a new heart.

This heart has the law of God written into it.

As the heart is the seat of the desires and motives of life, it only makes sense that God needs to "re-write" the operating system.

He also at the same time offers leadership and communion through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

So here we have three simple points to consider and share our view on.

Why do I get the feeling that the points have already been decided and there is no room for discussion here?

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, earlier you wrote that the heart is literal, and different from the mind. When you say it is literal, do you mean the blood-pumping muscle, or something else?

When I see in Scripture where it says that God will write His law in our heart, what I understand this to mean is that our minds are transformed to that it becomes our thought and desire to do be in harmony with God, which is equivalent to saying being obedient to God's law, since the law is a transcript of God's character.

In the other thread we've discussed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I still have no idea what you think this means.

Regarding the third point, that the Holy Spirit leads us and communes with us, I think this is clear and well stated, and doubt anyone would either have any doubts as to what this means nor wish to dispute it.

[pnattmbtc]

Create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me.

"To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, heart, and soul. The apostle says, "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. But men can never enter heaven with their old tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories. Heaven would be no place of joy to them; for everything would be in collision with their tastes, appetites, and inclinations, and painfully opposed to their natural and cultivated traits of character." Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 190

This seems clear. To receive a new heart is a "transforming process which can come alone through divine power" by which we obtain new "tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories," all of which are functions of the mind.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

When I see in Scripture where it says that God will write His law in our heart, what I understand this to mean is that our minds are transformed to that it becomes our thought and desire to do be in harmony with God, which is equivalent to saying being obedient to God's law, since the law is a transcript of God's character.

are you meaning our "conscience" when you write "minds"? I think I agree with you here.

[pnattmbtc]

I think the conscience is a function of the mind. Does this answer your question?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think the conscience is a function of the mind. Does this answer your question?

yes...thanks!

[teresaq]

i remember when the "faculties of the mind" was first pointed out to me.

the things it never occurs to us to think about!

[Guest]

Mark, earlier you wrote that the heart is literal, and different from the mind. When you say it is literal, do you mean the blood-pumping muscle, or something else?

When I see in Scripture where it says that God will write His law in our heart, what I understand this to mean is that our minds are transformed to that it becomes our thought and desire to do be in harmony with God, which is equivalent to saying being obedient to God's law, since the law is a transcript of God's character.

We do not think with the blood pumping muscle.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

[Twilight]

Create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me.

"To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, heart, and soul. The apostle says, "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. But men can never enter heaven with their old tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories. Heaven would be no place of joy to them; for everything would be in collision with their tastes, appetites, and inclinations, and painfully opposed to their natural and cultivated traits of character." Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 190

Excellent quote Karl.

When the heart is changed by God, then and only then can we render obedience.

But even then we need to continual guidance and leading of the Holy Spirit, the heart change is insufficient without the constant guidance and protection, the continual "life" of God dwelling within.

Notice this part of the quote:

Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

are you intending for this to be a discussion where others can have a different viewpoint?

or a sermon on what you believe that you believe we should accept?

The above is a statement of truth for people to discuss.

If however you do not think it is truth, you are free to discuss your reasons why your own understanding if it differs is truth.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Mark, earlier you wrote that the heart is literal, and different from the mind. When you say it is literal, do you mean the blood-pumping muscle, or something else?

When I see in Scripture where it says that God will write His law in our heart, what I understand this to mean is that our minds are transformed to that it becomes our thought and desire to do be in harmony with God, which is equivalent to saying being obedient to God's law, since the law is a transcript of God's character.

In the other thread we've discussed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I still have no idea what you think this means.

Regarding the third point, that the Holy Spirit leads us and communes with us, I think this is clear and well stated, and doubt anyone would either have any doubts as to what this means nor wish to dispute it.

Yes, the bible when it says heart, means heart.

When it says mind, it means mind and we do not question that.

The heart is the literal physical seat of desire and motive.

That is the way we have been designed.

This is an essential gospel truth.

The problem we have is that we have imbibed 20th century psychology, which thinks the mind is "all" there is.

------------------

So many adventists have swallowed this simple error, because they have not let the bible speak for itself.

They bring the idea that the "heart" is in fact the "mind" to the scripture, and then try to interpret it that way.

They then miss out on some very simple truths, that are profoundly beautiful.

God, comes in via the Holy Spirit and literally re-writes, or hardwires the physical heart (which science now knows has a neural network, very similar to the brain, but less concentrated).

He also does this to the neural pathways in the mind.

----------------

Why is this important?

Because out of the "heart" the minds thoughts are directed.

Our minds follow the desires of our hearts, that is the way we are built.

So God changes the heart, and the mind follows.

But we adventists are so enamoured with the idea of changing the mind, we completely miss the point and do not understand that the Holy Spirit's work is on the heart primarily.

-----------------

Further note:

This is how legalism and phariseeism arises, when we spend all our effort with US trying to change the mind.

But the change of our neural pathways in the heart, is something that can only be performed by a miracle of the Holy Spirit.

When we have that, we have the change we have been so long trying to attain in our own strength...

Food for thought?

Please pray about it.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

Create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me.

"To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, heart, and soul. The apostle says, "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. But men can never enter heaven with their old tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories. Heaven would be no place of joy to them; for everything would be in collision with their tastes, appetites, and inclinations, and painfully opposed to their natural and cultivated traits of character." Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 190

This seems clear. To receive a new heart is a "transforming process which can come alone through divine power" by which we obtain new "tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories," all of which are functions of the mind.

Please notice in the above quote that Ellen White uses the word mind and heart in the same sentence.

They indicate different things and usages.

Your rolling them up together is something your mind has provided and is "external" to the meaning of the quote.

Notice:

the very mind, heart, and soul.

Three different components.

And she is quoting Jesus here by the way...

You are saying it is all one.

Ellen White is repeating the distinction that Jesus made...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I think the conscience is a function of the mind. Does this answer your question?

yes...thanks!

What does the scripture say?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Mark, earlier you wrote that the heart is literal, and different from the mind. When you say it is literal, do you mean the blood-pumping muscle, or something else?

When I see in Scripture where it says that God will write His law in our heart, what I understand this to mean is that our minds are transformed to that it becomes our thought and desire to do be in harmony with God, which is equivalent to saying being obedient to God's law, since the law is a transcript of God's character.

We do not think with the blood pumping muscle.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

Our "thoughts" rise up out of our "desires" and "motives".

These are stored in the heart.

This is what Jesus taught and the bible teaches.

Very plainly.

It is 20th Century Psychology that teaches that this is not the case.

So when the bible says the thoughts come from the heart, it is stating the source of our thoughts is the heart, so they do in fact arise from there.

Motive and desire happen and are stored in the "heart" and are translated into "thought" in the "mind".

This is Jesus' plain teaching, but we so often miss it because we have been "brainwashed" with the idea it is all of the mind.

Our psychology should be derived from the bible, nowhere else...

-----------------

But let me ask you a question Richard about this belief of yours:

the blood pumping muscle.

Upon what biblical basis have you established that the heart is just a blood pumping muscle?

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

God, comes in via the Holy Spirit and literally re-writes, or hardwires the physical heart (which science now knows has a neural network, very similar to the brain, but less concentrated).

He also does this to the neural pathways in the mind.

----------------

Why is this important?

Because out of the "heart" the minds thoughts are directed.

Our minds follow the desires of our hearts, that is the way we are built.

So God changes the heart, and the mind follows.

But we adventists are so enamoured with the idea of changing the mind, we completely miss the point and do not understand that the Holy Spirit's work is on the heart primarily.

I started to write a long response to this post, but stopped myself, as it would be a waste of time and effort if I've misunderstood you here. So let me clarify first that when you use the word "heart" here, you are talking about the blood-pumping muscle, correct? That is, "physical heart" = "blood pumping muscle". This is what you mean?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

This seems clear. To receive a new heart is a "transforming process which can come alone through divine power" by which we obtain new "tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories," all of which are functions of the mind.

Please notice in the above quote that Ellen White uses the word mind and heart in the same sentence.

They indicate different things and usages.

Your rolling them up together is something your mind has provided and is "external" to the meaning of the quote.

Notice:

the very mind, heart, and soul.

Three different components.

And she is quoting Jesus here by the way...

You are saying it is all one.

Ellen White is repeating the distinction that Jesus made...

Mark :-) [/quote']

Your reasoning here seems to be based on the idea that a physical description of things is being made. Everything being described is a function of the mind. Different words are used as a means of communicating spiritual truth.

Consider, for example, the exhortation to love the Lord with all our being. How is this expressed? In one place, as "You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind." In another place it's "with all your heart and soul and strength." Paul speaks of our body, soul, and spirit being preserved blameless.

If we take these descriptions as physical descriptions, we'll get all confused. When God created Adam, Adam was referred to as a living soul. So is Adam a soul, or does he have a soul? Is man comprised of body, soul and spirit? Or is it heart, soul, and strength? Or is it heart, soul, strength, and mind?

Looking at these things physically won't get anywhere. It's like when Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" and the disciples said, "It is because we brought no bread." These aren't questions of physical makeup, but of spiritual truth. And in this case, the physical truth is very simple, which is that we are to love the Lord with all our being.

As to why the different words "heart" and "mind" are used, this is easy to understand just by considering how the words are used in ordinary conversation. For example, if one says, "I love you with all my heart" what does this convey? It convey emotional content. But the loving that occurs is a function of the mind. Remove the persons brain, and the person cannot love. Give him a heart transplant, and he will love just the same as before.

Now if I say "I love you with all my mind," what does that convey? It conveys the idea of thinking, of reason. So while both statements use the different words "heart" and "mind," it does not follow that "heart" refers to activity that occurs outside of the mind. The word "mind" is simply being used differently in different context, which everybody understands. When I say that these things are all functions of the mind, I have in mind (there's another example of a different use of the word "mind) the following:

Quote:

the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons b : the conscious mental events and capabilities in an organism c : the organized conscious and unconscious adaptive mental activity of an organism (Webster)

The following quote is helpful:

Quote:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man, and affect his inmost life. Whatever disturbs the circulation of the electric currents in the nervous system, lessens the strength of the vital powers, and the result is a deadening of the sensibilities of the mind.(CH 616)

All communication from God to man which affects his inmost life is through the brain nerves. Whether we speak of "heart" or "mind" or "soul" or "spirit," this is what we're dealing with.

[pnattmbtc]

This is Psalm 7:9

Quote:

9Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

The word "reins" means kidneys. I couldn't find a literal translation in English that used the word "kidneys." Here's one in Portuguese though:

Quote:

9Cesse a maldade dos ímpios, mas estabeleça-se o justo; pois tu, ó justo Deus, provas o coração e os rins.

"Deus, provas o coração e os rins." means "God prooves the heart and the kidneys." The New King James Version translates this:

Quote:

Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end,

But establish the just;

For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.

So what should we make of this? Should we say the NKJV is all wet, and that really what is being proved is the kidneys? Or is the NKJV correct, that the mind is what is being concerned, and "kidneys" are simply a means to an end (i.e., a word which had a meaning in antiquity to convey a function of the mind, which meaning we don't have in our culture, so the NKJV substituted the word "mind" instead).

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

are you intending for this to be a discussion where others can have a different viewpoint?

or a sermon on what you believe that you believe we should accept?

The above is a statement of truth for people to discuss.

If however you do not think it is truth, you are free to discuss your reasons why your own understanding if it differs is truth.

so it is the second bolded part according to what you say here?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Mark, earlier you wrote that the heart is literal, and different from the mind. When you say it is literal, do you mean the blood-pumping muscle, or something else?

When I see in Scripture where it says that God will write His law in our heart, what I understand this to mean is that our minds are transformed to that it becomes our thought and desire to do be in harmony with God, which is equivalent to saying being obedient to God's law, since the law is a transcript of God's character.

In the other thread we've discussed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I still have no idea what you think this means.

Regarding the third point, that the Holy Spirit leads us and communes with us, I think this is clear and well stated, and doubt anyone would either have any doubts as to what this means nor wish to dispute it.

Yes, the bible when it says heart, means heart.

When it says mind, it means mind and we do not question that.

The heart is the literal physical seat of desire and motive.

That is the way we have been designed.

This is an essential gospel truth.

The problem we have is that we have imbibed 20th century psychology, which thinks the mind is "all" there is.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God, comes in via the Holy Spirit and literally re-writes, or hardwires the physical heart (which science now knows has a neural network, very similar to the brain, but less concentrated).

He also does this to the neural pathways in the mind.

----------------

Why is this important?

Because out of the "heart" the minds thoughts are directed.

Our minds follow the desires of our hearts, that is the way we are built.

So God changes the heart, and the mind follows.

But we adventists are so enamoured with the idea of changing the mind, we completely miss the point and do not understand that the Holy Spirit's work is on the heart primarily.

I started to write a long response to this post, but stopped myself, as it would be a waste of time and effort if I've misunderstood you here. So let me clarify first that when you use the word "heart" here, you are talking about the blood-pumping muscle, correct? That is, "physical heart" = "blood pumping muscle". This is what you mean?

I am talking about the biblical exposition of what the human heart is and does.

Which is never stated as a "blood pumping muscle".

The inference you place on the heart here, precludes any other consideration of the meaning, design and purpose of the heart that God originally gave.

The heart is not a "blood pumping" muscle, but an organ that has the capacity to think in a strong limited sense.

It is the source of desire and motive.

This is what the bible teaches.

Do you have any indication, from the bible, that the heart is just a muscle?

If we are not using the bible as our argument, then we are using worldly error are we not?

What does the bible say about the heart Pnat?

Leaving aside all of our preconceived ideas, what does it say?

What does Jesus teach Himself (His teaching is the clearest on the function of the heart) teach?

---------------

Often when people challenge truth, plain biblical truth, it is with error.

Now that error is often something they bring to the bible, a preconceived idea.

Your argument here is doing that very thing, hence your argument stops you seeing this plain and simple truth. :-)

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

All communication from God to man which affects his inmost life is through the brain nerves. Whether we speak of "heart" or "mind" or "soul" or "spirit," this is what we're dealing with.

This here is the flaw in your argument Pnat:

1. You confuse the method of communication of God, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Now consider this:

The Holy Spirit literally abides in the heart of the individual who has received the promise.

Now to communicate to the Human agent, the Holy Spirit communicates through the nervous system.

This nervous system is in the heart and mind.

So we have two functions that your argument rolls into one.

---------------------

2. You have made an assumption that the words Heart, Mind and spirit mean exactly the same thing.

If that was the case, why would Jesus go to so much trouble to use language that indicates this seperation.

If Jesus want to convey the "logic, emotion, motives, desires" as functions of the mind, why didn't He express it that way.

He did not.

He expressed these functions, with their bodily components.

Your argument, which is a common error amongst Christians, is to ignore this distinction and place everything in the mind.

Why is this important?

---------------

The new covenant deals with the Heart.

It is this that is changed.

But if you deny you have a heart that is to be changed and become a residence for the Holy Spirit, how can God change it and how can He dwell in you?

We are convinced God is working on our minds.

But God is trying to convince us that He needs to work on our hearts.

Why not let the mechanic fix the car using His terminology and His understanding.

You keep pointing to the steering wheel and God wants to fix the engine...

---------------

Also remember, correct biblical interpretation starts with the literal sense.

If we are using "outside reasoning" to change the literal sense, we are bringing error to the bible.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

a word which had a meaning in antiquity to convey a function of the mind,

How do you know that this is the case?

That it is trying express a function of the mind when it says heart?

Upon what biblical basis are you making this claim?