Fake it until you make it?

[Gail]

Contrast this with abiding in Christ, the Vine- John 15...

But how much of our outward deeds is just a performance?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You've completely lost me..

[teresaq]

pretty good, gail!

i would add to that, how much of our outward deeds are like pauls before conversion?

[Woody]

Quote:

But how much of our outward deeds is just a performance?

I suspect that it is a great deal. I think we perform many self centered works .

[teresaq]

i personally need to be converted more and more til i love Jesus so much i would die for Him.

ive never seen the preaching of "the law" able to bring me to that point, not in my 59 years!! but learning of Jesus, yes, that is working. the preaching of Christ and Him crucified is all that will ever work.

[phkrause]

Quote:

But how much of our outward deeds is just a performance?

I suspect that it is a great deal. I think we perform many self centered works .

When you say "I think we perform many self centered works", I say by who's eyes? Only God knows if we are doing something for ourselfs (working our way to heaven) or if we are actually doing this because of what was done for us some 200 years ago. Otherwise I would say we are judging the heart of someone else!

pk

[Robert]

Contrast this with abiding in Christ, the Vine- John 15...

But how much of our outward deeds is just a performance?

In other words how much is show for the church folks? The Pharisee definitely had this problem: "All they did (works) were to be seen of men". Some call this a dog & pony show.....

I agree with you....

[Gail]

I like that- dog and pony show...

Pam, sometimes it is said that if you know what is right and don't feel like doing it but just go through the motions, that sooner or later you will just get used to doing the right and you will become righteous.

Jesus says it doesn't happen like that.

He wants us to ABIDE in Him, as the grapes are attached to the vine. We need to be attached (connected) to Jesus and He will change our hearts. If that happens then we will want to do His will and love and bless others.

There is a time when we have to do right just because it's the right thing to do. But we cannot live our whole lives like that. If we really don't feel like it, Jesus can help the "hardening of the attitudes".

This gives us the freedom to admit honestly when we just don't feel like it. Jesus can help us if this is the case. If we don't admit it to Him but rather go about resentful and grumbling, we are not being real.

Isn't that cool?

[Dr. Shane]

Fake it 'til you make it is a cliche that comes from the belief that right actions will lead to right thoughts quicker than right thoughts will lead to right actions. This is based on neurological science. Our behavior actually burns neurological paths in our brains. The more we do something the more likely we are to repeat it.

So if I obey God when I don't feel like it and continue to obey Him over and over I will burn a neurological path in my brain to the point where I will eventually want to obey Him. So we need not give up hope if we don't "feel" like going to church, don't "feel" like honoring the Sabbath, don't "feel" like volunteering at the local food bank, singing at a nursing home, visiting a sick church member, studying our Bibles or helping someone out. If we do these things over and over they will eventually become part of who we are. Thus the saying "Fake it 'til you make it."

This process is what is known as the educational variety of a spiritual experience. God doesn't always work the same way in each area of our lives. In some areas of our lives we experience a sudden conversion where God quickly transforms our hearts from desiring one thing to desiring another. Perhaps we go from wanting stay home and watch TV on Saturday morning to wanting to go to church on Sabbath morning. In other areas He may transform our hearts slowly over a period of time. That process is called a spiritual experience of the educational variety.

The educational variety of spiritual experiences often requires the believer to fake it 'til s/he makes it. Another way of looking at it is abiding in Christ by faith. That is, I am going to obey Christ not because I feel like it but because I believe He only wants the best for me. Such obedience cuts against the grain. What I really want to do is stay home and watch TV but I step out in faith and go to church or prayer meeting.

I am one to believe that the educational variety is just as valid of a spiritual experience as the sudden conversion. Some believe that because the educational variety takes effort on the part of the believer it is legalistic. I don't go there.

Most of my spiritual experience with God has been the educational variety but I know that God is the Powerhouse behind my efforts. I am just lending Him a willing vessel. Without Christ I can do nothing and with Him I can do all things. I just make the decision and He allows me the power to follow through.

Most importantly I must add, I don't do this alone. God has provided the church to be a community of believers which support me in this process. The more I plug into that community, the greater success I have in transforming into a new me. Club Adventist is part of plugging into that community. Attending church functions like prayer meetings, AY, Pathfinders, camp-meetings, etc are also part of plugging into that community. Calling church members during the week, visiting with them and inviting them to our homes is major part of plugging into the community. I think a lot of people in the church that do not experience the warmth and love they need is because they isolate. That leads us into another cliche - you have to be a friend to make a friend.

[Twilight]

Fake it 'til you make it is a cliche that comes from the belief that right actions will lead to right thoughts quicker than right thoughts will lead to right actions. This is based on neurological science. Our behavior actually burns neurological paths in our brains. The more we do something the more likely we are to repeat it.

So if I obey God when I don't feel like it and continue to obey Him over and over I will burn a neurological path in my brain to the point where I will eventually want to obey Him. So we need not give up hope if we don't "feel" like going to church, don't "feel" like honoring the Sabbath, don't "feel" like volunteering at the local food bank, singing at a nursing home, visiting a sick church member, studying our Bibles or helping someone out. If we do these things over and over they will eventually become part of who we are. Thus the saying "Fake it 'til you make it."

This process is what is known as the educational variety of a spiritual experience. God doesn't always work the same way in each area of our lives. In some areas of our lives we experience a sudden conversion where God quickly transforms our hearts from desiring one thing to desiring another. Perhaps we go from wanting stay home and watch TV on Saturday morning to wanting to go to church on Sabbath morning. In other areas He may transform our hearts slowly over a period of time. That process is called a spiritual experience of the educational variety.

The educational variety of spiritual experiences often requires the believer to fake it 'til s/he makes it. Another way of looking at it is abiding in Christ by faith. That is, I am going to obey Christ not because I feel like it but because I believe He only wants the best for me. Such obedience cuts against the grain. What I really want to do is stay home and watch TV but I step out in faith and go to church or prayer meeting.

I am one to believe that the educational variety is just as valid of a spiritual experience as the sudden conversion. Some believe that because the educational variety takes effort on the part of the believer it is legalistic. I don't go there.

Most of my spiritual experience with God has been the educational variety but I know that God is the Powerhouse behind my efforts. I am just lending Him a willing vessel. Without Christ I can do nothing and with Him I can do all things. I just make the decision and He allows me the power to follow through.

Most importantly I must add, I don't do this alone. God has provided the church to be a community of believers which support me in this process. The more I plug into that community, the greater success I have in transforming into a new me. Club Adventist is part of plugging into that community. Attending church functions like prayer meetings, AY, Pathfinders, camp-meetings, etc are also part of plugging into that community. Calling church members during the week, visiting with them and inviting them to our homes is major part of plugging into the community. I think a lot of people in the church that do not experience the warmth and love they need is because they isolate. That leads us into another cliche - you have to be a friend to make a friend.

I would say though, that "rewiring the mind", without "rewiring the heart", is a very dangerous thing.

We "can" rewire the mind, but we "cannot" rewire the heart, God has to do that, it is a divine act.

When we "rewire" the mind only, then we have the fake it till you make it scenario, but we never really "make it".

But when Jesus rewires the heart, then our motives, desires etc have been changed, our mind follows suit...

Jesus always taught that the transformation of the heart was fundamental and first.

The Pharisees made lots of "mental" laws for themselves, but failed miserably....

Because their hearts were not changed.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Pam, sometimes it is said that if you know what is right and don't feel like doing it but just go through the motions, that sooner or later you will just get used to doing the right and you will become righteous.

Jesus says it doesn't happen like that.

He wants us to ABIDE in Him, as the grapes are attached to the vine. We need to be attached (connected) to Jesus and He will change our hearts. If that happens then we will want to do His will and love and bless others.

There is a time when we have to do right just because it's the right thing to do. But we cannot live our whole lives like that. If we really don't feel like it, Jesus can help the "hardening of the attitudes".

This gives us the freedom to admit honestly when we just don't feel like it. Jesus can help us if this is the case. If we don't admit it to Him but rather go about resentful and grumbling, we are not being real.

Isn't that cool?

[Dr. Shane]

I would say though, that "rewiring the mind", without "rewiring the heart", is a very dangerous thing.

Are we talking in metaphors or literally? Metaphorically the heart is the mind. When the Bible speaks of changing our heart it is speaking metaphorically about the mind. When we talk about faking it until we make it we are talking about literally creating new neurological paths in our brains - we are not talking in metaphors.

[Dr. Shane]

i dont want to be like the people who "fake it til they make it" because they have never "made it", except perhaps in their own minds. they lack that understanding, that comprehension, how could they get it in "behavior"? "abiding in Christ" is not something we do apart from Him, or "in faith".

I am not sure what is trying to be said here. It sounds very judgmental but perhaps I am just not grasping what is being said. It sounds like the only real experience with Christ comes from the sudden conversion experience. That has not been my experience. I have observed many that have come to know Christ gradually, little by little. I have witnessed God change people little by little on several occasions. I would never say that such people lack understanding or comprehension because they did not have a sudden conversion experience.

If we wait until we feel like obeying God, that day will never come for many of us. So we must step out in faith and fake it 'til we make it. We go through the motions and our feelings later catch up with our actions. That has been the experience of many if not most.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i dont want to be like the people who "fake it til they make it" because they have never "made it", except perhaps in their own minds. they lack that understanding, that comprehension, how could they get it in "behavior"? "abiding in Christ" is not something we do apart from Him, or "in faith".

I am not sure what is trying to be said here. It sounds very judgmental but perhaps I am just not grasping what is being said. It sounds like the only real experience with Christ comes from the sudden conversion experience.

[Dr. Shane]

not seeing where there was ever a mention of sudden conversion in the thread.

the topic is "working" apart from Christ,

Read my first post in the thread. I contrast the educational variety and the sudden conversion spiritual experiences.

The topic of the thread is "Fake it until you make it" which is a cliche often repeated in 12 Step circles. It is not about working apart from Christ. The word "fake" in the cliche refers to someone doing something they don't feel like doing. It does not refer to working apart from Christ.

[teresaq]

i think this "problem" was already dealt with in the Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life? thread. :)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would say though, that "rewiring the mind", without "rewiring the heart", is a very dangerous thing.

Are we talking in metaphors or literally? Metaphorically the heart is the mind. When the Bible speaks of changing our heart it is speaking metaphorically about the mind. When we talk about faking it until we make it we are talking about literally creating new neurological paths in our brains - we are not talking in metaphors.

I do not personally agree that the heart is the mind, we have had many discussions on this on this board.

I have the view that it is the literal heart where the passions, lusts, desires and motives are stored, and that this itself also needs re-writing, it is this lack of work on the heart that causes problems in our church.

Note:

It is never stated once in the bible or SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind, as far as I have been able to discover.

It also never states in the bible or SOP that the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind, but only ever states that He dwells in the heart, again as far as I can discover.

Mark :-)