What is a Christian?

[Woody]

If we are going to have Christian Unity ... it might be good to know who we are uniting with. Can we define a Christian?

[phkrause]

If we are going to have Christian Unity ... it might be good to know who we are uniting with. Can we define a Christian?

A follower of Christ? Isn't that why they were first called this, because they really didn't have a better name for those that followed Jesus?

pk

[Woody]

Yes. Well some seem to feel that having unity with Christians is a bad thing. They want to break Christianity down into denominations and claim that we can only be united with that particular denomination. But, we are to be united with the body of Christ ... as far as I can tell. Not the body of SDAs.

What say you?

[Kevin H]

Well, first we need to understand that there are Christians with a capatal "C" and christians with a small "C"

A capatal "C" Christian is someone who has consciously accepted member ship in a Christian organization, and / or consciously accpeted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saveour, or otherwise would consider themselves Christians.

The small "c" christians are those who would not consider themselves as Christians, but who have been responding to the Holy Spirit in their lives. Their prayers are the types of prayers that Jesus would pray. They are interested in the same things that Jesus would be interested. The love the world as Jesus has loved it and they are fitted for heaven for they have heaven in their hearts.

[Guest]

I can't imagine someone praying the same type of prayer as Jesus, and being interested in the same things as Jesus, but not consider themselves a Christian.

[Kevin H]

I can't imagine someone praying the same type of prayer as Jesus, and being interested in the same things as Jesus, but not consider themselves a Christian.

Well the Seventh-day Adventist Jews from the late 1800s and early 1900s for example (strange how Mrs. White did not correct our early missionaries from offering to Jews a Jewish version of Adventism.) Abraham Joshua Heshel, Those natives of Malta who helped the shipwrecked people including Paul. Those who Roger Wiliams wrote "I'd rather live among christian pagans than among pagan Christians" The Danite Jews and a couple of Islamic groups that Joseph Wolf found (as mentioned in the Great Controversy) for starters. Old Testament mission work was helping the other nations to do better in their faith. In the book of Jonah, the salors who had a better understanding of Yahwehism from their connection with Hebrews that Jonah converted them to worshiping "Yahweh". However when he got to Nineveh he converted them to "God" and history tells us that at this time the Assyrian Empire had a period of time of monothiestic worship, but it was a monotheism NOT of the Yahwehist religion, but of the god who they saw as the most high god. They were in their same religion, but having higher morals and not trying to appease all the gods (also, this part I'm not sure about but I read someplace that at this time that Nineveh and Assyria had a queen rather than a king, and that Jonah 3:6 might in history have not been a king but queen, but again I only read this in passing and did not look at the details so I don't want to be dogmatic on this point).

The point is that Jesus died for the whole world. The Holy Spirit works with everyone. We present Jesus the best we can, but that does not mean that we present in a way that the other can fully understand. Just like we can give Seventh-day Adventist Bible studies to everyone the best we know, and not everyone who hears us joins our church, they may end up worshiping with others, but the Holy Spirit knows what they understood and what they did not understand (and what we don't yet understand and maybe things that we don't even yet know that we don't understand) and the Holy Spirt knows where their heart is. Only the Holy Spirit knows if they are rejecting truth, or if they are not seeing the truth to reject it, or if they are merely rejecting tradition.

This is not only among other Christian denominations that God has people, but all through the world in all faiths, religions, even sceptics of religion may be living up to all the light that they see. These are all people who the Holy Spirit are working on and they are responding to the Holy Spirit and while they may not join a Christian orginazation, they are still living up to the light they understand and their heart is in the same place as the heart of Jesus. One of the points with the Investigative Judgment and contrast from the evangelical movement that Fordism can lead to is how the Investigative Judgment has plenty of room for small "c" christians, we are all in this together. We don't like to say "I'm saved" as a synonym for having become a capatal "C" Christian. Several of Hitler's concentration camp comidants were Lutheran ministers preaching on Sundays and having services for their camp staff. Crule Nazi guards who would kill a Jew at a blink of an eye would on Christmas and Easter sing the hymns and pray with tears in their eyes and attend church week after week. They were capatal "C" Christians but did not really know Him. We can't smugly say "I'm Saved" as our Hindu neighbor who may not understand all the details of who Jesus is may still be responding to the Holy Spirit and thus know Him and be just as saved as we are. The evangelical movement is in danger of righteousness by vocabulary; say the magic words and be saved. The investigative judgment teaches that God works with us individually.

In closing let me tell you the story of Dr. Chan. He was a Buddhist dentist living in Cambodia. When he heard that the Camier Ruge came to power he snatched off his glases and trampled them under his shoes, ran home and took his family to a part of the country where he knew no one and pretended to be an ignorant pessant living in very undesirable living conditions, one of his children were born under this condition. When they had the chance they escaped into Thailand to a refugee camp. While in the camp there were some Baptist missionaries preaching the gospel. He and his family heard them but did not really understand them, but Dr. Chan would help the other refugees. Finally they were able to come to California. In Califoria Mrs. Judith Hyder was helping Cambodian refugees to settle, and one thing that she would do was bring the families she was helping to the Long Beach Cambodian Seventh-day Adventist Church. She would bring Dr. Chan and his family to the church. He would be polite and attend. One Sabbath Dr. Chan became excited saying "It's him! It's him!" Dr. Chan told how all his life he felt impressed that there was a God out there. He was a religious Buddhist and loved that God that he knew existed, that he wanted to be a dentist to help others, that he depended upon this God when fleeing the killing fields. While living in poverty and in the refugee camps he felt that God was with him. Now this sabbath what the pastor was saying mixed with what he had heard from the Baptist Missionaries and he realized that Jesus is the God who he felt was his friend through life. Yes, today Dr. Chan is a capatal "C" Christian. But had he been killed in the killing fields, or even if he got sick and died even after hearing the Baptist Missionaries but not becoming a capatal "C" Christian at that time he was still a small "c" christian, a faithful capatal "B" Buddhist, while he did not understand the vocabulary of J-E-S-U-S but he knew the person and he would have raised in the first resurection.

There are many like Dr. Chan in Thailand, Japan, Israel, and every other nation on earth.

[Musicman1228]

There IS a difference between a generic Christian and a Seventh-day Adventist Christian; and that is to some SDA's the 10 Commandments still matter. If you are a Pauline Christian they don't.

Jesus Christ called for unity among His disciples (as was stated above). How can this happen when there is this gigantic divide between SDA's and everyone else? Do we move toward them, or do they move toward us?

[Woody]

No movement is needed Musicman. We don't have to be united in knowledge. For that will never happen. But we can be united in the simple task that has been placed before us here on this earth. IT is to care for the needy. Feed the poor. Demonstrate to others the LOVE of God.

It is by demonstrating the love of God that others will desire to know the head work or knowledge. But all that knowledge will not save us. We will not be united with that on this earth. For when we get to heaven ... our real learning will start.

[Musicman1228]

Unity MUST be based upon truth, otherwise Jesus lied when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead His disciples into ALL truth. If He didn't mean it why did He say it?

[Woody]

Unity can be based upon the simple truths that a group of people understand together. We will never understand ALL truth until we get to Heaven. Even there we will continue to learn of more Truth. Yes, He will guide us to all Truth. But it will take much time.

[Kevin H]

I like your posts Woody. Also Musicman, look into the new studies of Paul which sees him much friendlier to the 10 commandments than tradition paints him, as well as the Jewish reclamination of Paul. Traditionally the Jews would talk about the person Jesus and the demon Paul. Today Jews are much more interested and defending how Paul was a good Jew now as they are studying Paul in his context instead of through the glasses of tradition.

The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, but let's not forget that some of the major points of truth are the truth about worshiping God according to the dictates of our conscious and to love one another.

The Religion of Yahwehism, the religion of the Old Testament, had 2 denominations, the Priesthood of Moses and the Priesthood of Aaron, and they got along like we do. And they also had sub groups. Yet the Old Testament comes from both denominations. We find different shades in the 4 gospels and among the disciples. We can really see it in Mark and Luke, where Luke tended to want to say that Mark was wrong as often as he could. Especially in some of their basic theams. For example in Mark no one really notices who Jesus is until he dies on the cross, where the Roman Centurian, a Pagan unfamiliar with the truths of the Bible was the only one to realize who Jesus was, but he was so ignorant of the truth that he proclaimed the truth in a way that showed his pagan background and would have shocked any good monothiestic Jew. Meanwhile in Luke, people know who Jesus is from before he was born and it seems that everyone knows who Jesus is, and the thief on the cross, a zelot who had been studying the prophecies looking for a messiah to lead them in the over throw of Rome, has the scriptures change his view of how God's Kingdom was to come and who Jesus was and proclaimed the Gospel to those with in ear-hear. Meanwhile when Luke gets to the centurian, Luke has him only saying "Surely this was a good man." In Mark the Centurian is the only one to realize that Jesus is not a man but God. In Luke the Centurian only thinks Jesus is a good man.

These differences teach us about the importance of liberty of conscience and how we need to unite in respecting our differences, trying to present what we understand as truth as clearly as we can, but not force it on others. And where each of us are willing to learn more of truth and to be like the thief on the cross, willing to continue to reexamine the evidence and change our minds as we come into contact with more truth.

[Musicman1228]

Where does Jesus say that we will have to wait until we get to heaven to know all the truth? Could it be that right now we don't know everything we need to know about how salvation works to not be deceived by the lies that Satan has insinuated into the church? Satan would like nothing better than for us to believe that we know ALL about the conditions of salvation when in fact we don't. This is what Jesus meant by knowing ALL truth. This is why listening to ANY voice other than that of Jesus Himself places a person in jeopardy of believing a lie as if it were the truth.

What if what you now believe to be true about salvation vis a vis 'faith' and 'grace' is in fact a lie? What if you now believe that the conditions of salvation are just 'accepting Jesus as your personal savior' and ' Jesus died on the cross to save you from having to keep the Law because He did it for you', and in the end this is proven to be a lie? Can you not see why there would be much weeping and gnashing of teeth by those who then would believe that they had been betrayed by the very people they looked too for guidance and instruction, their teachers and pastors? And where would these teachers and pastors and preaches have acquired their misunderstanding of salvation? Could it be from a Bible writer who's teachings are contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

For whom should we look as our final arbiter of truth? Why Jesus Christ, of course. Then why do so many Christians look to someone other than Jesus Christ Himself for this purpose, and rather look to writers and teachers who filter the words of Jesus through their own perspectives and paradigms rather than just taking Jesus Christ at His word?

We hear a lot in the news today about 'spin doctors', who take the words that a celebrity speaks and twists those words to mean something other than what was originally meant, for the purpose of mitigating a faux pas or misstatement on the part of that celebrity. Jesus Christ is God and does not make misstatements. He means exactly what He has said. He does not need a 'spin doctor' to qualify anything that He has said. So why do so many Christians defer to the words of others (including some New Testament writers) as truth rather than merely going to the very source of truth and learning from Him? This has me perplexed, and is one of the reasons as to why I call myself a 'follower of Jesus Christ' rather than 'Christian'. To me a Christian is someone who ascribes and adheres to the religion of Christianity, as defined and invented by the founder of Christianity, the 'apostle' Paul. Jesus Christ was not a Christian, and neither were His disciples; they were followers of the "Way" the "Truth" and the "Life", who is Jesus Christ. I am a Bondservant of Jesus Christ, not a bondservant of Paul's idea of who Jesus Christ is. I get my information on salvation and truth directly from the source of Truth, not filtered through a man-made religion. If this makes me a pariah here on this forum and within my church then so-be-it, I am in good company. After all, Jesus Christ was a pariah in His own 'church'. Since my main goal is to be like Jesus, and given the responses that I receive here on this forum and elsewhere, at least in this one area I am apparently being successful.

[Woody]

The Gospel is very simple. As simple as ABC. Many times people were baptized within an hour of learning of the Gospel. That simple knowledge is all they needed to know. Sure we all will continue to learn and grow. But I think that we really complicate the basis of what God requires us to know.

He wants us to study to show ourselves approved unto God. Sure. But, most of that is just the gravy.

[Musicman1228]

What was it that Jesus said about salvation? Read John 3:1-21. Read the whole thing, and don't just concentrate on v.16. Then tell me what Jesus said about salvation.

[Dr. Rich]

Woody, you might want to re-read the account of what happened to the seed on the hard ground. Grew fast, but died because they felt there was nothing else to learn and they had everything.

Do you know what happens to the majority of those the missionaries baptize? Because no one gives them real food to eat (all they had was milk), they turn away.

Hey, if you went to 5th grade and all they taught was 4th grade material, you would want to quit too. This is what is happening right now to everyone who calls themselves a christian. If you stand in one spot without moving toward the truth (searching for new truth) then soon you will be in total darkness.

It is no wonder courts reject hearsay evidence! Don't you think we should do the same with the writers of the New Testament? Check out John 14:26 and 17:20.