If You Were a Jesuit....

[Overaged]

Right on!

In 1896 a testimony was sent to the effect that as a people we had lost our bearings. Isn't it time for us to find our bearings back?

sky

Not quite. Whatever "testimony" you are referring to is being used here out of context. Some have. Some have not. Jeremiah 3:15 is a promise that I have personally seen come true just last week.

[skyblue888]

"The people to whom God has entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings." T.M.397.

I never said that we had to wait for the whole church to find her bearings. This is an individual responsibility but once the Lord has helped us find our bearings back, it is our duty to share with others how.

sky

[John317]

Ellen White on Jesuits:

Quote:

Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time, the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery. Cut off from every earthly tie and human interest, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power. The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to uphold the banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy. {GC88 234.2}

When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering

to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants, to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites. All the outward pomp and display of the Romish worship was brought to bear to confuse the mind, and dazzle and captivate the imagination; and thus the liberty for which the fathers had toiled and bled was betrayed by the sons. The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC88 234.3}

... Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. [sEE APPENDIX, NOTE 10.] See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants Look at the growth of ritualism in England, and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC88 565.3}

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see, and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism, and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC88 566.1}

Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?

[phkrause]

Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?

[Overaged]

Ellen White on Jesuits:

Quote:

Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time, the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery. Cut off from every earthly tie and human interest, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power. The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to uphold the banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy. {GC88 234.2}

When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering

to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants, to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites. All the outward pomp and display of the Romish worship was brought to bear to confuse the mind, and dazzle and captivate the imagination; and thus the liberty for which the fathers had toiled and bled was betrayed by the sons. The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC88 234.3}

... Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. [sEE APPENDIX, NOTE 10.] See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants Look at the growth of ritualism in England, and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC88 565.3}

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see, and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism, and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC88 566.1}

Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?

[Gordon1]

In decades past, most public libraries carried numerous Protestant books warning of Jesuit aims & methods to control society and bring the world into subjection to Rome.

And for this reason, libraries have been specifically targeted in order that such books be removed from circulation or placed in special collections. Jesuits or their agents join library boards and implement policy changes.

So, few people have read the older books. Today the ideals of Protestantism have lost almost all meaning as the ecumenical movement takes hold.

The good works of the Jesuit Order are for increasing their influence in society, inheriting estates, etc. No crime is forbidden if it can extend Rome's reach. "The end justifies the means".

[Gordon1]

Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?

Do you find it in the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe.."?

[Overaged]

In decades past, most public libraries carried numerous Protestant books warning of Jesuit aims & methods to control society and bring the world into subjection to Rome.

And for this reason, libraries have been specifically targeted in order that such books be removed from circulation or placed in special collections. Jesuits or their agents join library boards and implement policy changes.

So, few people have read the older books. Today the ideals of Protestantism have lost almost all meaning as the ecumenical movement takes hold.

The good works of the Jesuit Order are for increasing their influence in society, inheriting estates, etc. No crime is forbidden if it can extend Rome's reach. "The end justifies the means".

I don't know man...that's a lot of "stuff" to say without any real proof - not to mention, Do you know how many "Jesuits" it would take to do all that? I think the whole thing is not understood well. Not that I don't believe what Ellen White wrote - just saying I don't think we are reading it right.

[skyblue888]

Do you know how many "Jesuits" it would take to do all that?

As many as needed.

I think the whole thing is not understood well. Not that I don't believe what Ellen White wrote - just saying I don't think we are reading it right.

How do you read it?

sky

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?

Do you find it in the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe.."?

Nope....sure don't.

[Overaged]

Do you find it in the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe.."?

/quote]

Nope....sure don't.

Guess it's been a while since you read that book eh?

[Gordon1]

I don't know man...that's a lot of "stuff" to say without any real proof - not to mention, Do you know how many "Jesuits" it would take to do all that? I think the whole thing is not understood well. Not that I don't believe what Ellen White wrote - just saying I don't think we are reading it right.

Yes Overaged, and there's more. How many would it take? The Jesuits established their first North American college in Quebec around 1633. I believe they were in the Chinese Royal court before this (Ricci). Over 3 or 4 centuries, one can cover much ground. They are focused and dedicated to one aim. Mostly unmarried with almost infinite resources at their disposal if required. Relatively few Adventists are interested in Reformation history, but here we find the modern roots of the church.

[Overaged]

I would be interested in this "history" IF it can be validated. Trouble with most of what has been said here except for a bit by Ellen White; is that it is not validated/proven. No reference whatever for a lot of it.

[Gordon1]

I would be interested in this "history" IF it can be validated. Trouble with most of what has been said here except for a bit by Ellen White; is that it is not validated/proven. No reference whatever for a lot of it.

[CoAspen]

I did Google.... a lot of conspiracy sites!!!

[skyblue888]

Does it really matter that there should be many conspiracy sites?

Facts are facts and the truth is still the truth.

sky :)

[CoAspen]

Read Stans posted about the so called Alberto Rivera.....GIGO, yes it is.

[Stan]

here it is....

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/459243

[Overaged]

Yes. One would hope these matters of history would be common knowledge, at least amongst the remnant, but these facts have been hidden so long or obscured by sports scores that now they wear the cloak of 'conspiracy theory' or heresy.

This whole Jesuit thing has gotten really stupid, and blown way out of proportion. Yes; they do exist, and for a select purpose, but all this mucilaginous voodoo conspiracy theory stuff is impossible to believe.

[BobRyan]

here it is....

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/459243

That was a helpful post.

So also this one

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post459327

And as already seen - Popes themselves had some pretty harsh words for the real practices of Jesuits as viewed over centuries of time.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/454571/Re_If_You_Were_a_Jesuit.html#Post454571

So does all that add up to the specific case of Alberto Rivera being correct? How can you possibly know for sure either way?

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

John317 posted this on that other thread:

"But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants Look at the growth of ritualism in England, and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel.

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see, and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism, and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC88 565, 566}

This is well documented in the book, The Jesuits, by Vatican insider, Malichi Martin. His other book, The Keys of This Blood, is also well worth reading. He shows in that book the interest the Vatican leaders take in the Seventh-day Adventist Church and in what other Christian churches teach. Martin was not anti-Catholic; in fact, he was a staunch defender of the Catholic Church and an admirer of the pope, although he was critical of some of the teachings of the Church about the papal system.

If people who become aware of Rivera's being a fraud think that it means everything he said was a lie, they would be making a big mistake. The reason he was so persuasive is that much of what he said was true.

Jesus said that we should be innocent as doves but wise as serpents, and then He gave us certain principles to apply to test the prophets. We need to use those same principles to test people who come to us with stories such as Alberto Rivera did.

john317

_______

Personally I have never liked Rivera's denunciations of the Catholic Church or of the Jesuits. His work went totally contrary to the following inspired counsel:

"God has jewels in all the churches, and it is not for us to make sweeping denunciations of the professed religious world, but in humility and love, present to all the truth as it is in Jesus. Let men see piety and devotion, let them behold Christlikeness of character, and they will be drawn to the truth." RH Jan,17,1893.

Of course that does not mean that we should not be aware of what the Jesuits are about or what they might be doing behind the scenes but one thing is certain and that is that sweeping denunciation of them is not the way but presenting the truth as it is in Jesus is.

sky

[Gordon1]

The reason he was so persuasive is that much of what he said was true.

Yes John, but much more, he was repeating the same history told in countless Protestant & even Roman Catholic books over the centuries. And his testimony is corroborated by numerous SDA old-timers on Jim Arrabito's Behind the Door, a two hour video on this topic. Arrabito travelled the world documenting locations where the Sabbath had been kept by small groups through the ages. And recording the Pagan relics and symbols of Rome's belief system which were merged with the true faith to bring about Sunday worship.

These images were published in the New (Illustrated) Great Controversy which retained the full 1911 text. The photos were also displayed poster-size in a salon at the 1990 GC Session in Indianapolis. A few weeks later Jim Arrabito died with two of his sons while piloting a private plane in Alaska.

Behind the Door video (2 hr.):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5730251808212460790

Alberto Rivera was a whistleblower. Standard practice is to smear these men and paint them in the darkest hue. Nothing new here.

[Gordon1]

Those who have researched the old books will know that Rivera's story is true.

But as John says, even Vatican insider Malachi Martin openly published much of the same quite recently. Why so open? They now have little fear of exposure. The public are asleep.

[John317]

I agree with your post, sky.

[John317]

And his testimony is corroborated by numerous SDA old-timers on Jim Arrabito's Behind the Door, a two hour video on this topic. Arrabito travelled the world documenting locations where the Sabbath had been kept by small groups through the ages. And recording the Pagan relics and symbols of Rome's belief system which were merged with the true faith to bring about Sunday worship.

These images were published in the New (Illustrated) Great Controversy which retained the full 1911 text. The photos were also displayed poster-size in a salon at the 1990 GC Session in Indianapolis. A few weeks later Jim Arrabito died with two of his sons while piloting a private plane in Alaska.

Behind the Door video (2 hr.):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5730251808212460790

Yes, I have copies of that Illustrated Edition of Great Controversy. Arrabito did wonderful work. I'm only sorry he wasn't able to finish it. There is no doubt of the truth of what Ellen White wrote in the Great Controversy.

Even if it were to turn out that Alberto Rivera was a fraud, it wouldn't change the main message since that is based on well-established historical facts. Yet we know, too, that Satan loves for disreputable people to become associated with the truth because he knows this will cause many people to doubt or reject the truth.