Would you still be a moral person if ____________?

[LifeHiscost]

[Regarding the OP...]

Because no factual reality can be proven or disproved by theory

the question can only elicit opinions of what is thought to be possible with no assurance of certainty. Look at how many theories of past accepted masters of science, are proving to be false after all, when subjected to the light of present day technology and modern discoveries.

Regards!

[John317]

The moderator, Tom, doesn't want any quotes on this thread.

[Tom Wetmore]

And I might note for those not paying attention to the rule that I may respond by simply deleting the whole post rather than trying to figure out how to edit it for contextual sense...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I tried to remove my quote, but it was too late and I couldn't do it. Sorry, Tom. I forgot this was the Original Thoughts" thread... mea culpa

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I was under the impression that this thread was supposed to be asking how we think we would be if there was no God. So talking about God on this thread is sort of moot, if the OP was really intending that we think about his question.

[phkrause]

Very good point Pam!

pk

[Bravus]

No-one is advocating for godless thinking: the original question Alex asked is a hypothetical, and a way in to an interesting discussion of the relationship of morality and spirituality. These are things worth discussing, in our attempt to better understand our obligations to God and to our fellow human beings.

I'll try now (once I nuke some coffee and make some toast) to respond to a few of the points raised in response to my blog post. I won't use quotes so you'll need to have read the rest of the thread or at least the relevant posts, but I will respond to people's points by name.

[Bravus]

Pam mentioned that my characterisation of 'Christians' in the blog post didn't represent her view, or even reflect the feeling of this thread as a whole. I agree: I was really reacting more to my whole experience of Christian arguments in this field over many years, and to some of the stronger views being put in this thread, such as those of SivartM and dgrimm60, who are claiming that all reality is derived from Christian roots (in the latter case) or from 'some form of divinity' in the former. Christian thought on this issue, as on almost every issue, is enormously broad, and no single characterisation is going to take in all perspectives.

I think the argument that, because there were a few Christian missionaries to India in the first couple of centuries AD, that every moral principle in a country that has been Hindu for thousands of years since is rooted in the Bible is a very far-fetched case to try to make. And India was just one of the examples I chose - what about unreached tribes in the Amazon? Many of them still have some of the same moral codes described in the 10 Commandments. Clearly some moral principles *can* arise in isolation from the Biblical influence.

We can ascribe that to the Holy Spirit's direct action in the heart of all people everywhere, or we can ascribe it to the fact that these rules Just Work: a society without 'thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery' rules is not a healthy or stable society...

[Stan]

Just a word..

I suspect those who use quotes etc will soon lose the ability to post in here.

[phkrause]

Bravus that is why I mentioned that Christianity had gotten to that part of the world at one point not that it actually got rooted in somehow. And I do agree about the Amazon statement you made. I believe that Pastor Doug Batchelor in one of his lecture's went through many countries that have no christianity still have a moral code. And as a matter of fact they have even found a group of people that were actually keeping the Sabbath that had never had anybody preach to them! I thought that was very interesting when I heard that.

pk

[Tom Wetmore]

So be it and let it be done...

Sorry for the disruption...

[phkrause]

Don't forget dgrimm that even though both came from Abraham, he really didn't do much training of Ismael after a certain time. But you can still tell that many of the health rules (laws) that the jews practice are also being practiced by the Arabs. But just like the christians they wanted to distants themselves from the Jews.

pk

[phkrause]

dgrimm don't forget that Methuselah lived right up to the time of the flood. So yes you are correct about them orally passing on all the things that were learned from A&E.

pk

[cardw]

My ethical views are based on reason and empathy with the goal of maximizing joy and minimizing suffering. I believe that we are all connected and therefore whatever we do to others is going to affect us as well in some way.

Rather than focusing on what is "right" and "wrong" I think it is more useful to see what is balanced. I find this a much better system in the complex world we live in because no rule or law can ever hope to cover every situation.

I also believe there is an intuitional awareness that becomes available when we tell ourselves the truth, become open to our own humanity, and when we abandon attempts at meaning through ego gratification.

I have come to all of these concepts through living life, observation, and experiences of trial and error. I cannot claim that it is the "best" way, but in my life experience, it has been the most successful at maximizing joy in my life and reducing suffering.

To me, that is a far more convincing awareness of well being than any claims of Divine revelation ever offered.

[John317]

Some good, worthwhile thoughts, cardw. Looks like you've done a lot of deep thinking about life.

I'd be interested in knowing who some of your favorite writers are or what books you've gotten the most out of.

[cardw]

I read quite a lot, but it's only theory to me until I try it out. If it doesn't work in real life then it's not much use to me other than a curiosity.

The books that have really helped me move forward are

Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl

Healing the Shame that binds you by John Bradshaw

Training in the Art of Loving: The Church and the Human Potential Movement by Gearld and Elizabeth Jud

Why am I afraid to tell you who I am? by John Powell

Honest to Jesus by Henri Nouwen

A letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris

The Road Less Travelled by Scott Peck

Tao Te Ching

The Zen Teachings of Jesus by Kenneth Leong

A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis

Doubt: A History: The Great Doubters and Their Legacy of Innovation from Socrates and Jesus to Thomas Jefferson and Emily Dickinson by Jennifer Michael Hecht

Healing Ancient Wounds: The Renegade's Wisdom by John Barnes

Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh and Elaine Pagels

Pathways to Bliss: Mythology and Personal Transformation by Joseph Campbell

The Power of Myth with Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers

Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine

The Big Book

and many others...These are the ones I can remember right now..

[abelisle]

Nice list, Rich!

I've read a few but of the ones I've read, I most highly recommend Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh and Elaine Pagels for its clarity, readability and the sense of pure spirituality that pervades his writing.

Alex (nice blog too, BTW!)

[doug yowell]

I'm a little puzzled here, carwd. How did reading all those books about God and Jesus help you to move forward to a far more convincing awareness of well being than any claims of Divine revelation ever offered?

[cardw]

Well, I see Jesus as a skeptic and philosopher who was hijacked by orthodox Christianity and given Divinity. I even have my doubts that a person named Jesus Christ existed at all, but there is certainly an expression of wisdom and insight in some of the sayings and observations of Jesus.

One does not need Divinity to say these things or to come up with them. To understand this more clearly I think Joseph Campbell's work on the Power of Myth is helpful in understanding this approach.

Just because a writer states they believe in god doesn't negate what they may say in other regards. The particular Christian writers that I have found helpful tend to relate in a way that doesn't need god to make what they say true.

[cardw]

There is work, but it's not based on external rewards. I'm not working towards salvation. I'm trying to avoid suffering and experience joy. That's pretty much instinctual. Not many people I know have to work at that desire.

When I state what I find to be true, it's not me trying to be good. It's me discovering the best way to find joy. That's an internal reward or in Christian terms your treasure in heaven. I think Jesus was referring to the Kingdom of God within as heaven available now. Many early Christians saw what became referred to as the 2nd coming as an internal mystical experience available right then. Pentecost and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Christ may have been remnants of early gnostic beliefs about this mystical return.

Because Christianity establishes this idea of salvation, it becomes difficult to understand this concept outside of the Christian lens of good/bad/right/wrong. And for me the words of Jesus really spell this out clearly when he states that by the fruits you can know what is true. And, for me, I have found absolutely no evidence that Christianity produces what it claims.

When I look at the fruits of Christianity over its history, I find an appalling preponderance of violence and bigotry over and over and over again. And I believe it's because it adopted the neo platonic ideas of good and evil. The practice of violence against any who disagreed has been the greater portion of its history. It has been the secular movement that has checked its violence for now, but as we all know there are still those willing to kill in the name of god.

And I encounter Christians who are beautiful people, but their ignorance serves to spread suffering. A fool can create far more suffering than a tyrant. If Christians would spend more time learning how to reason well and less time trying to be "good" I think their voice would bring far different results. There is a vast wasteland of teaching, within Christianity, on how to empathize and love others. There is an excess of teaching on how to be "right."

And the tragedy of this approach is that it squelches empathy and love and is neither good or nor "right."

[John317]

I see we like some of the same books. You've listed some excellent things. Viktor Frankl's book is one of my favorits. I've heard good things about the C.S, Lewis book you mention, but I haven't read it yet. I want to read it and Surprised By Joy. I liked his book On Pain and Screwtape Letters. He's always interesting and of course a great stylist, too. I enjoy reading almost anything about myths and eastern religions. Carl Jung wrote some excellent books about both.

[John317]

You say you have doubts that a person named Jesus existed at all. That's a very interesting viewpoint. I don't think there are many students of history today who believe this. I'm not saying they necessarily believe that He was who the NT claims He is, but it seems to me that most believe that someone named Jesus of Nazareth actually did exist during the time the NT says. Even the ancient Jewish writings of that time-- the Talmud-- mention him although they say he was a sorcerer who performed miracles. That agrees with what the NT says some of the Jewish leaders were saying about Jesus. There's also the letter of Pliny the Younger which is very early and shows that the people were willing to die for what they believed. For me it means that they at least did not believe it was made up.

Have you heard of or read a book entitled, The Case For Christ, by Lee Strobel? It does a good job of investigating the evidence about the existence of Christ and about whether the NT writings about Him stand up under close scrutiny. For anyone who enjoys the subject, it's certainly good reading anyway.

[cardw]

For a summary of negative arguments you can go to this link

Did Jesus Exist?

In actuality we can probably never know if Jesus existed. My guess from looking at the process of creating the Jesus myth is that Jesus or Joshua is a combination of various myths of the time and probably was originally a Jewish teacher with no claims of Divinity.

Within Christian circles the existence of Jesus is rarely questioned, so most believers are unaware of the lack of historical evidence other than the New Testament for Jesus the Christ. And all of the books of the NT were written long after Jesus died.

[John317]

What is the earliest date of an ancient manuscript of one of the NT books, as far as you know?

Well, it certainly is a fascinating subject anyway.

If true, it's the most important thing in history and indeed in life; if untrue, it really doesn't matter.

I enjoy reading books on the subject from different viewpoints. I want to know the truth. I don't like the idea of accepting lies. You probably feel the same. So the best thing to do is read both sides of any issue, particulary this one. It keeps us honest, or more so anyway.

[abelisle]

I'm going to break one of the commandments slightly (shh . . . ) and borrow Rich's comment about Christian ignorance. How sad but how true. A lack of knowledge not only causes suffering for our own people but creates a schism within and a chasm between the secular and religious worlds.

Just the ability to speak honestly with agnostics and atheists without trying to be right. This would be much appreciated. I have quite a few friends in this category but they respect me and my beliefs because I don't use them as either a hammer or a crowbar. Some of the best spiritual conversations I've had are with these friends and sad to say not with my Christian ones.

Just take a look at this forum. There's more arguing from within than without. We are clearly not on the same page. I'm scared. And I'm getting more scared everyday. It's my fellow Christians who are scaring me. Lord, into thine hands I commend my spirit.

Your brother in Christ

Alex