Who are "the four and twenty elders" in Revelations?

[abelisle]

I just came across this reference in Rev. 11:16-18 as it ties into my interest in the environmentalism aspect of stewardship (thanks, teresaq(sda))

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth

I've looked at different commentaries and even the EGW estate and nothing of substance has popped up.

Anyone out there with some esoteric knowledge about these "elders"?

Alex

[Kevin H]

Yes, that is an important text and I want to let you know that I support your aspect of stewardship. This is a very important text.

As to who the 24 elders are, a popular view is that they were from those who raised from the dead when Jesus died, and took to heaven. However I find more evidence of the text that gives me a different understanding.

We find the throne of God in the center with the the 7 spirits of God (the Holy Spirit) and later the lamb joining them. Around the throne are the 24 elders and the 4 living beasts. The four living beast are the Old Testament symbols of the four sides of the camp of Israel passing through the wilderness on the exodus (They traveled, as did others in the day, in a war camp, four sides with the empty space in the middle, where the tabernacle was. This is actually the design of the high priests square of jewles on the brestplate. not in the rows you see in our pictures)

So you have God on the throne and God's people as represented by the four living beasts, and the 24 elders is how God is communicating with his people.

There is something where 24 elders represented family members to attend the feasts, however I don't know the details about that. But there are a couple of other things that I do know about that is important here:

First there is the trial of Jesus. Sanhedren is the Greek term, but the Hebrew and Armaic term was "Elder" It consisted of three groups of 23 and the high priest made 70. A quarum was 23. Often 23 Saduceen priests would get together and make decisions independent of the Pharicees. One of these came to so called Messiahs as the Pharicees tended to want honest trials and the Saducees did not care, they would bring in witnesses that contradicted each other, then take out the guy and stone them to death, unless they were very popular when they would be turned into Pilate who would crucify them on a cross because the understanding of Deuteronomy of cursed be anyone who hangs on a tree, was understood as that if God allows someone to hang on a tree it meant that they were cursed by God, it was a scandle that would ruin a reputation as surely as an affair or anything else you could hear about a pastor that would ruine his reputation.

So Jesus trial was before 24 elders, the 23 saducees and high priest. These were 24 elders giving a false message about Jesus. If John of Revelation is John the Apostle (which he may be) he had seen the 24 elders condem Jesus, and here he sees 24 elders telling the truth about Jesus.

Also kings tended to have 12 counselors and major Rabbis would have 12 full time disciples and 70 part time disciples.

So what we have here is 2 groups of 12, and to groups of 12 that communicate between the throne and the 4 beasts, or between God and his people traveling to the promised land. Therefore the 24 elders is the Bible.

I hope this helps.

[Guest]

The 24 Elders are representatives of unfallen worlds.

[Kevin H]

The 24 Elders are representatives of unfallen worlds.

Richard, actually there is some evidence towards that view, based on the table of the nations, you may be correct. If you have more evidence I'd like to see it.

However even taking that piece of evidence, and the roles of specific prophets with the titl "the Lord's messenger" with this evidence, looking at it with other pieces of evidence; the break down of the work by Moses' Father-in-Law, the courts of ancient kings, the roles of prophets, the 24 Elders crying Crucify him, and their position between the throne and the 4 beasts which is a symbol of God's people going through the wilderness on their journey home, I see the weight of the evidence pointing towards it representing the witness of the 12 tribes and 12 apostels, or the Bible.

How do you explain their location? How are the unfallen word representatives communicating with us? I'm not a big fan of UFOs.

[Guest]

Where does it say they are communicating with us?

[Kevin H]

It is the fact that they are between the 4 beasts and the throne a position of filling the gap between God and his people in exodus mode. There is a connection when God's people in exodus mode give glory the 24 elders fall in their face in prase, but this is more a response from us rather than communicating to us, but this shows a connection between the two. And when John did not see anyone worthy to open the book, it was one of the 24 elders who lead him to the spiritual truth. This on top of the evidence I presented above leads to my understanding.

However some of the evidence does point to your view, and also there are times where two views may not be as contradictory as they appear on the surface. But we find the angels and unfallen worlds outside looking in on the situation of God and his people in exodus mode (the 4 living beasts) and the 24 elders are between God and his church, with the others looking in, thus I understand it as God communicating with his people and the rest of the universe watching with keen interst in how God works with us.

[Guest]

You are assuming that because of their position, that they communicate with us. I wanted you to show me something, anything that says that this is the case.

That way I don't have to study the Bible based on your assumptions.

[Kevin H]

The idea of 24 elders comes from the idea of the quarm of the 70 elders of the sanhedren: This comes from the 70 sons of God for the divine counsel (which is evidence for your interpetation) but in Old Testament theology the Lord's Messenger would be a part of this counsel to bring the messages from this counsel to the people he is ministering to, so 24 or two groups of 12 of the Lord's Messengers who were a part of this counsel and instructed people from the counsel including writing the Bible also stems from this. It also reflects back to the system Moses' Father-in-Law set up to help Moses bring judgment and instruction to the people, They were between Moses and the people, just like the 24 elders are pictured between God's throne and the 4 living beasts, which are the beasts of the four sides of the Hebrews encampment durring the exodus, thus indicatiing God's people on our exodus home. It also reflects back to the structured of ancient king's courts and the king's representatives who would carry out the king's decisions, and from here we have 2 groups of 12. And as the evidence points to it not being the full sanhedren, but just a quarm of 24 saduceen priests that tried Jesus and at Pilate's yelled "Crucify him" 24 elders telling lies about Jesus, here we have 24 elders proclaiming the truth about Jesus. And it is in the middle of this that the news of Jesus breaking the seals is happening.

The structure is God's throne, the 24 Elders (whoever they are) are next around the throne of God, next in line are God's people in exodus mode, then the rest of the universe looking on.

So you are trying to tell me that we have the universe looking on and thus we are the theater of the universe, and we are looking towards God, with the 24 elders between us and God, they respond to our positive actions, but that the 4 beasts are sitting there oblivious to what's going on around them? That God has left us in ignorance of the Lamb opening the seals?

Now I am not saying that you are wrong as there is evidence that supports your view from the idea of the 70 sons of God, or maybe they both fit together, but for me I tend to find the arguments that it is the testimony from the prophets of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostels that are teaching us, the 4 living beasts about what the lamb did for us on earth and what the lamb is doing for us in heaven with the rest of the universe looking on still sounds the most convincing.

[Guest]

So you are trying to tell me that we have the universe looking on and thus we are the theater of the universe, and we are looking towards God, with the 24 elders between us and God, they respond to our positive actions, but that the 4 beasts are sitting there oblivious to what's going on around them? That God has left us in ignorance of the Lamb opening the seals?

Not at all. We have the Holy Spirit, the Angels, the Word of God, and the words of the prophet. This is how God communicates with us, according to the Bible. Not the 24 elders. And who said anything about the four beasts being oblivious to anything?

I asked you to show me something that says the 24 elders communicate with us. You haven't done that. Instead, you just expounded on your theory a little more. At least I think that's what you did. Most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the 24 elders in Heaven.