If you were to leave the Adventist church, where would you go?

[Stan]

hmmm, manipulated into believing by fear..... that could be a topic by itself.

[olger]

It could.

That's the wrong use of fear, methinks.

g

[Guest]

That's not how I came to believe.

[doug yowell]

Yeah, all that weeping and gnashing of teeth stuff,Tower of Siloam,millstone around the neck, more tolerable for Sodom and ...well, you know, all those scare tactics. Who makes up this stuff, anyway? Somebody ought to tell em they've got the wrong attitude!!

[Twilight]

I wonder if Jesus would be accepted in some churches if He came to preach...?

[Stan]

this remains a no quoting zone... please modify your posts.

[Twilight]

It is?

How does that work?

I am not allowed to quote anyone?

Mark

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR REMINDER -

Correct. No Quoting is allowed here. Consider it like a conversation and think how absolutely annoying it would be if everyone repeated what everyone else said before they offered a comment. (I actually know someone who does, and it really is odd and annoying in converation...)

Go to the Original Thoughts forum topic menu and read the rule at the top. And it would probably help to understand the reason for the rule and how this got started to read the two locked topics at the top.

[Tom Wetmore]

I would have to say that my early years attending numerous traditional Adventist evangelism series largely focused on end of time prophecies with all the fearsome beasts, etc. and the Judgment tended to be fear inducing. I think the Church is slowly moving away from this approach, but there remain those that think the only or best way to motivate is to put the fear of God in people.

I think fear does have motivational power. But it is negative and easily destructive and only valuable in the short run. I don't think it is the best way. I agree with cardw that a sense of consideration for others, compassion, is a far better long term motivation. It seemed to be Jesus' major motivation to act. Excellent role model to follow...

[doug yowell]

Stan, have you ever considered starting a new topic on the value of a fear motivated belief?

[Woody]

Yep. The 'beast' people are still around pushin' their agenda. But like you say ... it is progressively moving towards the Gospel approach. Praise God.

[Guest]

You mean the agenda of spreading the third angel's message? Which happens to be the only reason this church exists?

[SivartM]

What about the first and second?

[Guest]

All three

[SivartM]

Oh, okay. You just mentioned the third.

The 3 angels' messages are the "everlasting gospel". So... I think that teaching the gospel would be sort of important.

[cardw]

The use of fear as a very short term attention getting device is needed in very rare cases. I have only used it when my child was running toward the street. And then I quickly assured them that I wasn't mad at them. I don't see this in the description of god in the Bible. I see a very totalitarian system of control.

Now if you want to put some work in and recreate a loving god out of all that you can, but it is not there in the text. There are some very comforting passages in the Bible, but the violence of god is so severe when it happens that these statements really don't seem like the same god. And if you had a human with these wide mood swings you would have a very manipulative person that would be far more frightening than an angry person alone.

The truth is the Bible does not flow like one book. It is many books with many different ideas about god and none of them are based on evidence. They are based on claims and appeals to faith.

We can negate other fearful gods that also say loving things and the books written about them. Read the Egyptian book of the dead. It reads much like the OT. And yet, because we have been raised with this idea of the Bible being a good book, we can't see the same thing happening in the Bible.

Look at the work it takes to make a loving god out of the one described in the Bible. It takes a lot of denial.

Think about it for a moment. Why do you think there continue to be believers that hold god as this god of punishment? They aren't bad people, but they are also trying to be honest with the text because that is what it says. And Christianity has a long history of seeing god that way. Unless you go to the gnostic tradition, which most of you would consider to be heretics, you aren't going to find a non violent form of Christian belief.

All I can say is, read the history. It tells a far different story.

[Dr. Shane]

The proper use of fear is healthy. We have seen several examples of healthy fear in this thread. Many people that think the Adventist church focuses too much on fear have themselves been raised in the church. They lack the experience of those coming from other religious backgrounds. Over the many years I have spent in 12 Step groups I have seen scores of people that have been beat up and abused by fear in religion. Adventism is far more love-based than many of the other Christian denominations out there. Of course there is going to be an element of fear in Adventism as there is in the Bible. However the overall focus of the Bible and of Adventism is based on love. That cannot be said of many other denominations.

[cardw]

I don't believe we have to choose between two masters. I see no evidence of that at all. I think this belief has eroded the ethic of personal responsibility and the ability of people to choose differently.

What I do observe is people making up things in their own minds and projecting their own motives on others, all the while claiming that it's god's way.

I look at it this way. I can either learn from my own mistakes or the mistakes of others. And the less ego I have invested, the sooner I'm going to learn the lessons.

A belief that Satan is going to control us in the absence of a belief in Jesus does not play out in reality. Some of the finest people I know are not Christians. I know some very fine Christians too.

Again this is another fear base teaching of Christianity.

[John317]

You're right there, Richard.

Our church was raised up by God for the purpose of accepting and teaching the Third Angels' Messages to all the world in order to help prepare a people for the return of Christ. Sadly and tragically, though, Satan has had our church in a holding pattern ever since 1888 when God gave the church an opportunity to go into the Promised Land. The true gospel we've been commissioned to teach is about more than Christ dying and forgiving us. That is the message of the "first apartment" ministry of Christ, which focuses on His covering our sins.

The message of the gospel changed when Christ began His High Priestly work in the second apartment, the Most Holy Place. Today Christ is blotting out sins, not merely forgiving them. Most of the Christian world, including many SDAs, are still living and preaching like Christ is still in the Holy Place. In the book, Great Controversy, Ellen White talks about the necessary "new duties" that people will understand ONLY if we are following [studying] Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary.

[cardw]

Shane, I agree with you that Adventism has its upgrades. And along with you I have done 12 step work with great results. And I can see how your association with your Adventist community has greatly improved your life.

I would offer though, that just because it has improved your life, doesn't mean that it is universally true or even true at all.

I think when we try and lock down a set of beliefs and hang on to them, it limits our ability to grow. I focus far more on tools, which are mainly what I received with my work with the 12 steps. I think tools take us much farther than beliefs.

For those who fear this approach as going to hell in a hand-basket I would point to the natural consequences of poor choices. A tool that teaches us to pay attention is far more valuable than simply telling someone to stop doing bad things. A tool that teaches us the joy of connecting with our community through empathy creates a bond that needs no instruction.

These methods don't exist in the Bible. Believe me I have looked. If they did exist in Christianity, they have been lost. They do exist in each person, once they are awakened. I have seen this over and over again. That is why I can speak with confidence, because I see this work every week.

[phkrause]

To no one in particular! Are we using the word "fear" in its right context? I've always thought that the word fear has not been correctly translated from the original Hebrew! And that it should have been translated as "respect" or something closer to that than the way we know the word fear today.

pk

[cardw]

If the word fear means respect then the text which says...

Perfect love casts out all fear.

would say...

Perfect love cast out all respect. :)

[teresaq]

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

G5399 fob-eh'-o

From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

G5401 fob'-os

From a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

as in those who serve God because otherwise He will roast them for hours to days...

[cardw]

If these tools exist in the actions of Jesus, then they aren't communicated very well. I think the reason they are seen as hidden is that they only exist when we figure them out and read them back into the texts. I think results are a far better way to evaluate truth then decoding the Bible.

I don't see love in God sending his son to die for our sins. No death can make up for the results of bad behavior, no matter how cruel or torturous. The suffering has happened already. How can that be made up?

The phrase "believe on him" has no obvious meaning and is one of many vague sayings that get said all the time as if there was this profound magical wisdom behind it. One has to know the meaning before it can be changed.

Substitutionary death is a very low form of ethical justice. I think we can move beyond that. Even humans can forgive and give up the need to punish without sacrificing their first born sons. It seems so contrived and immature.

[John317]

You're right. The word is phobos and can be translated as fear, terror, affright, astonishment, trembling concern, reverential fear, awe, respect, deference.

It means respect in Rom. 13: 7; 1 Peter 2: 18.

It refers to an object or cause of terror in Romans 13: 5.