Questions For Searcher (Or anyone else) On Translation

[John317]

I would really like to know how you translate 7 verses. Of course you could do all of them or just one or two, just as you like. Anyone who wants to is invited to participate. Or even just ask questions about the translations of these verses.

1) John 1: 1

2) 1 Cor. 10: 9

3) 1 Tim. 3: 16

4) Titus 3: 14

5) Hebrews 9: 12

6) 2 Peter 1: 1

7) Rev. 3: 14

It will be fun to see if we agree and what manuscript evidence we both base it on, etc.

Please mention the Greek printed text or texts being used in the translation.

[John317]

**BUMP**

[Amish]

We have a sure translation in the KJV, which is near identical to the Geneva 1560 that uses the 12th century Byzantine ms brought over in 1453 when Constantinople was taken by Islam.

Anyway, let's see what someone thinks about the French Revolution and the Seven Vials.

The Seven Vials and the French Revolution

Revelation 16:1-21 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God on the earth."

First Vial

"And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image"

The year was 1789, and France was in a terrible predicament. With their rejection of the Gospel of the Reformation, darkness of atheism and humanism developed. Political Communism was founded (the beast from the bottomless pit, Rev.11:7; 17:8). Instead of the true Gospel, a tirade of infidelity and atheistic propaganda came from the pens of men like Montesquieu, Voltaire and Rousseau. "From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores" (Is.1:6).

Second Vial

"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea"

France now became a sea of turmoil and blood! The Guillotine was set up, and the Reign of Terror commenced. The Guillotine was kept busy day and night in all parts of France. Churches were destroyed, atheism was proclaimed the State religion. "But the wicked are like the troubled sea" (Is.57:20).

Third Vial

"And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of water: and they became blood"

The Rise of Napoleon. Napoleon proclaimed himself Emperor and went on a career of conquest the like of which the world had never seen. All the countries of Europe were affected by the Napoleonic wars. On the invasion of Italy by the French Revolutionists, the government of the Pope was overthrown. In 1798 General Berthier marched on Rome, set up a Roman Republic, and the Sovereign Pontiff was carried captive into France. "And he said to me, The waters which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Rev.17:15).

The Fourth Vial

"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire"

The next great cataclysm was the Revolutions of 1848. After the defeat of Napoleon the deposed kings returned to their thrones and the Pope returned to Rome. Austrian Prince Metternich was the most reactionary leader at this time - he ruled Europe with an iron fist. He set up the Council of Vienna, which restored the Papal States to the Pope. Suddenly - and without warning - revolution broke out throughout most of the countries of Europe. It began in Paris on Feb.23. "...that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev.13:14).

The Fifth Vial

"And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain and repented not of their deeds"

Fall of the Papal States. The year was 1870, a milestone in world history. The Pope had just declared himself infallible when war broke out between France and Prussia. With the rapid Prussian victories, the French bayonets protecting the Pope's temporal dominions were withdrawn, and Italy was finally united and free. "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God has put in their hearts to fulfill his will... And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen," (Rev.17:16,17; 18:2)."Horns" are symbolic of kings which are thus symbolic of todays world government, also the ten toes of Daniel 2.

Sixth Vial

"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the waters thereof were dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared"

East and West unite. Uniting of the Eastern-Russian Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches. The River Euphrates was always the traditional barrier between East and West. Few expected any changes in their lifetime. "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev.16:15,16).

• The three unclean spirits emerge (World government promise of peace, Israel Christian Zionist delusion; world religion ecumenical Unity).

Seventh Vial

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, it is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightning, and there was a great earthquake (...) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven"

This is the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rome-Moscow Relations Begin New Era

WASHINGTON, D.C., DEC. 14, 2009 (Zenit.org)

Things are moving on the Eastern front. And more movement may be coming soon, as an old winter chill in Rome-Moscow relations seems to be thawing, with profound consequences for Europe and the entire world.

http://www.zenit.org/article-27845?l=english

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/286160,popes-first-visit-to-russia-a-step-closer.html

The Euphrates River

In the Bible the Euphrates is named among the four rivers which flowed from the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:14), and it formed the northeastern limit of the promised land (Gen 15:18). Throughout all periods it was the boundary between east and west, between the spheres of influence of Assyria and Egypt, and each of the great empires attempted the conquest of the borderland of Syria and Palestine. This is also true of the Persian period (Ezra 4:10). In the Hellenistic and Roman periods the Euphrates served as the boundary between the kingdoms of Armenia and Cappadocia, Sophene and Commagene. In the early Roman period it separated Rome from Parthia.

http://www.answers.com/topic/euphrates

The Seven Vials and the French Revolution

www.reformation.org/vials.html

www.1335.com/frenchrevolution.html

The Seventh Vial

by Dr. J. A. Wylie

http://openlibrary.org/b/OL23332172M/seventh_vial

audio:

Rev.16 French Revolution

Rev.16 1st vial French Revolution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jljsI49NujA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qmvEpMf6YY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqUppeFYfrg

[skyblue888]

In Revelation 16 the "River Euphrates" is not a literal river of water. In Revelation, the "waters" are a symbol for "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" (Rev.17:15) who will give their full support to Papal Rome. The whole world will render homage to the papal power. Papal Rome will again reign supreme, for a short time, but at the time of the sixth plague the "waters" whose symbolic name is "River Euphrates" will be dried up which simply means that at that time the people of all nations will withdraw their support and destroy her.

The seven last plagues are events taking place after the general close of probation, after Jesus will have ceased His intercession.

sky

[Amish]

Hi Sky, That is a historicist view as held by Dr. J. A. Wylie in his 1840 book The Seven Vials. Since it was written in 1840 he didn't have the 1870 fall of the papal states piece to plug in. His book is an interesting read, how they had so much figured out back then.

While we are certainly told the "waters" where mystery babylon/whore sits are "peoples and nations", and while we know from history the water where ancient Babylon sat was the Euphrates, the symbolism keeps these seperate.

Rev.17:1 "I will show to you the judgment of the great whore that sits on many waters:" (....) 17:15 "The waters which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

The symbol here is "water". Water symbolizes people and nations. We know that Holy Rome ruled the Empire over many nations of Europe. The question then, is the "River Euphrates" the same "water" or is this another and different symbol for a different event.

We have recently seen the fall of communism in the former USSR where the Russian Orthodox Church is. Now there is talk of unity with the Roman Church after a 960 year schism. It is a huge event. Some are placing more importance on the fall of communism as the marker of unity between east and west, others the unity of the eastern and western Roman Empire. We can be sure the united empire is never going to happen. Daniel 2 tells of two legs. Then we find in Rev.16 if we understand the river euphrates drying up as clearing of this barrior to unity, the soon return of Jesus!

I think the bigger question for Adventist is, is the mark of the beast still a future event? Many get stuck in Rev.13 awaiting some theocratic Sunday or anti-Sabbath law. I was there. If we read Rev.14 it says the mark has to do with all of God's law (v.9-12), or those who are not keepers of the law. What does this mean for Adventist? It means even as some keep the 7th-day Sabbath they can still be law breakers (or in babylon) by practicing the ecumenical Catholic holidays, Christmas, Easter, St. Valentine's, ect., having other gods and idols.

How many souls have been lost because of the theocratic Sunday law belief, which may never happen? Many potential saved turn away at the prediction. It is much more credibile to show others how all of God's law is important and central to the mark of the beast, same as it always has been.

Hope that wasn't too long for you but there was two or three very important issues.

[Musicman1228]

I would really like to know how you translate 7 verses. Of course you could do all of them or just one or two, just as you like. Anyone who wants to is invited to participate. Or even just ask questions about the translations of these verses.

1) John 1: 1

2) 1 Cor. 10: 9

3) 1 Tim. 3: 16

4) Titus 3: 14

5) Hebrews 9: 12

6) 2 Peter 1: 1

7) Rev. 3: 14

It will be fun to see if we agree and what manuscript evidence we both base it on, etc.

Please mention the Greek printed text or texts being used in the translation.

I will try my hand at #1 using Strong's Dictionary.

(1) In1722 the beginning746 was2258 the Word3588, 3056, and2532 the Word3588, 3056 was2258 with4314 God3588, 2316, and2532 the Word3588, 3056 was2258 God2316.

En (en) arche en (ane) ho logos kai (kahee) logos en pros ho theos kai ho logos en theos.

In this one verse John shows that he understands the complex nature of God in that God is what He speaks, and what He speaks exists because He speaks. Anything God speaks either already IS or becomes real just because He speaks. This shows the awesome power of HIS words, because HIS words are HIM.

The words 'beginning' (#746) goes far beyond mere existence at a specific time. It does indicate a 'commencement' or start, but it also indicates an already applied 'state of being' (estate) of a 'power', 'principality', 'magistrate', 'principle' or 'rule'. John understands that God is self-existent, always; outside of time and space, never beginning, never ending. He used this word to show that what God speaks has those same characteristics of timeless power and authority. When God speaks something into existence it simply IS just as He IS. It cannot be changed, modified or ended anymore than can He. His Words are alive as He is alive. They cannot die anymore that He can die. Both God and His words are Permanent.

I believe John began His gospel this way to put to rest the theology current in his day (just as it is today) that states that God changed or modified His WORD to accommodate this 'new' theology presented in the budding Christian church by false apostles teaching 'in the name of God'. John wanted no part of this 'new' theology, and wanted the church to know this.

So here is my translation of John 1:1;

In and before the beginning and always God exists as BEING and WORD. God and His Words are the same, existing in the same time/space/no time/no space continuum. Whoever God is so are His Words. God/Word are permanent, and can never cease to exist because they have always existed. They IS/WAS always and forever. God/Word are power, principle, rule and authority and can never and will never change. When God speaks something into existence it can never go out of existence except by God speaking it so.

[teresaq]

first my brother you are hi-jacking this topic, and while i have serious issues with the author of this thread, i dont wish to join you in disrespecting him.

I think the bigger question for Adventist is, is the mark of the beast still a future event? Many get stuck in Rev.13 awaiting some theocratic Sunday or anti-Sabbath law. I was there. If we read Rev.14 it says the mark has to do with all of God's law (v.9-12), or those who are not keepers of the law. What does this mean for Adventist? It means even as some keep the 7th-day Sabbath they can still be law breakers (or in babylon) by practicing the ecumenical Catholic holidays, Christmas, Easter, St. Valentine's, ect., having other gods and idols.

but if you would like to pursue this, another topic could be started.